Building while Racing..."normal recovery time" after a race?

[mr4fox]

I raced on Sunday. it was a pretty aggressive 2 hour, 80km road race with some short sharp hills so quite a bit of anaerobic(z6) work which i would have to say is probably my main weakness (but its getting better!).

Any way i ended up with an NP of 322w and an Intensity Factor of 0.91.

Wednesdays training goal was 2x20min climbs. I had hoped to hold about 380w for the first climb as i had held 375w the previous Wednesday, but at 13 minutes i gave up as i knew i would crack in the next minute or two and thought it would be better to do a second 10 min interval at similar power and then maybe another one or two climbs a sweet spot intensity.

On the second climb i managed target power for about 5 min, again i could tell i was close to popping so dropped back to sweetspot power and finished the climb. It was hard. Much harder than SST usually feels and i think maintained threshold HR for the entire duration even though id dropped the power down to ~330w.

Basically, i was still significantly weaker than i was last week and the week before that. Id slept well and felt rested (before i got on the bike) and my Training stress balance (TSB) was at +17.


Im new to racing, and I'm 35 years old. How long should i expect to wait after a race before doing a 2x20min threshold workout or something of that intensity? is 3 days too little? am i recovering unusually slowly or am i just expecting too much.

Is it possible to build power while racing road races every second week?

[WMW]

Basically, i was still significantly weaker than i was last week and the week before that. Id slept well and felt rested (before i got on the bike) and my Training stress balance (TSB) was at +17.

Im new to racing, and I'm 35 years old. How long should i expect to wait after a race before doing a 2x20min threshold workout or something of that intensity? is 3 days too little? am i recovering unusually slowly or am i just expecting too much.

If you need to rest, then do it. It's about that simple. Rest and recovery is just as important as the hard workouts.

[Tapeworm]

1) please amend the title... looks like a spam post or something!

2) It depends. There are so many factors which go into the mix for how much we recover (or not) in a given time period. Sleep and nutrition are the two main ones, but other life factors can have a huge bearing. Pithy saying is: stress is non-specific.

3) Observe and monitor the training metrics in whatever flavour you like, but don't be a slave to them. They are a guide to training load, fitness/freshness etc, but not an absolute (see point 2). If you're feeling boxed, then you're boxed. Roll up the session, noodle around, take it easy for a couple of days, try again. We are not machines, you can't just put in X training and get Y result every time. Does not work that way. Failure to adequately heed the body's warning will just end you up over-reached, sick, tired, all of the above.

4) What are you measuring your power with??
(I am feeling decidedly hubbard-like at the moment with all these high power efforts around the place )

[HakeemT]

4) What are you measuring your power with??
(I am feeling decidedly hubbard-like at the moment with all these high power efforts around the place )

I was thinking the same thing.
Also, the 'typical' FTP-based training zones/duration math doesn't seem to work well in this case.

Example:
If your NP for the race was 322 and IF was 0.91, that means you've set your FTP to 354W.
2*20 minute efforts are 'typically' done at FTP, and additionally (again 'typically') your 20min CP would approximate be FTP / 0.95 (based on the 'typical' 20min best * 0.95 ~ FTP), which means ~373W.

It makes sense to me that you can't do a 380W (or even 375W) 20 minute effort, let alone back it up minutes later, if your back-solved 20 minute best is in the same range.

[mr4fox]

Title amended. sorry about that. it was 1am lol!

Sound advice here guys, thanks.

Measuring power with Garmin Vector pedals which I've been using for the last 18 months. they have always seemed very consistent and accurate. And i think even DC rainmaker found them to be closest to SRM in accuracy.

My FTP was set to 355 based off the 374w 20min climb the previous week (375x0.95). i had hoped to improve on the previous weeks effort as im building which is why i had hoped to hold 380. my Nutrition is pretty good. Ive studied some nutrition and physiology at University and am a bit of a geek about these sorts of things. by that i mean im interested in te subjects so am always reading to find out how i can improve on them to help my performance.

Agreed about not being a slave to the training metrics. I've seen my FTP increase while my CTL has decreased just because I've changed training methods. And i also agree that i should have turned and gone home or just done and easy z1/2, and normally i would have but i only get to train Wed, Sat and Sun as a rule so didn't want to wait until Saturday to start training again. And an easy day was out of the question as due to my optimism and not "feeling" tired, id already taken a ferry over the fjord to the mountain(more like a long hill) to train and it was pissing rain and only a few degrees above zero C so didn't want to be out for 4 hours doing an easy ride.

It seems that once racing started this season i haven't been able to increase my ftp at all and i feel its just because of the slow recovery after races. so I'm contemplating withdrawing from my next race in 2 weeks to focus on building for my A race in 4 weeks.

But I'm still curious as to how long others would normally wait before training threshold+/_ intensity after a race. And if it is possible to keep building while racing every other weekend.

[ultyguy]

IF @ 0.91? Typo? My understanding of IF is variability, if racing it's more like 1.5.

And exactly what others are saying, if your ftp is 355 then you're not really doing 2x20 right doing them at 375-380. You should reserve that more for 10 min intervals. Or maybe even do 90/30sec over/unders inside your 2x20 @ 400/325 as that's far more useful for racing than 20 min even effort imho

And if your tired, your tired. Track resting heart rate as a guide. Wait till you feel better, wait one more day, then ease back into intensity, don't just smash straight in.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Tapeworm]

For a start FTP estimates... are estimates. If you have a *hard* race for about ~60mins then you can get FTP from that. Or from a 20min test it can be anywhere from 89-97% of that. For most it seems to be about 92-93.

Or you can ignore the whole FTP thing and just run power based of previously obtained numbers and work off those. A nominal percentage of FTP for various durations is handy to use, especially for a beginner, but over time you should have a good idea of what power you're currently at and/or need to be for a given duration.

As to how quickly you start hard intervals after racing, again, it depends. If in a hard training block working towards a particular goal it may be the next day. Power *will* be suppressed (and expected) but it can work to dig a nice big hole... as long as you then programmes the required recovery out of it.

Also, tracking HR is a "nice" to know, but it tells us very little about the state of fatigue. Especially as one of the signs of overreaching is a suppressed HR, even at rest... but a high HR can mean the same (or you've had too much coffee).

In short, if you feel tired, you are.

[boots2000]

Like all others have said- if your 1st assumption (354 FPT) is correct, you are doing 2x20 WAY WAY TOO HARD!
You are doing them at VO2 max level-
It is natural that you could do one of these one a good day fro testing purposes but not as part of a regular training routine.
It is also not necessary.
Smart plan for 2x20 (rested or a couple days after a race) would be to start conservative- do 1st effort in the 330's. After 1st effort decide how hard 2nd effort needs. to be. It is totally fine to keep it the same.
Many people miss the point that you don't need to go as hard as you are able to get maximum benefit. Quite the opposite. Conservative is almost always a good approach.
The other thing that I have observed is that when riders want to see a high number in training, at some point they will be disappointed because this number drops.
For you it happened in one week. Often times you can eek out improvements for 3-4 weeks.
Then the day come when you see a reduction in power- you are sad about it.
Power is a range- be conservative and allow yourself to enjoy your training.

[mr4fox]

Waiting one more day isn't often an option. The next possibility is Saturday. That's 6 days after a Sunday race. I'm worried that's too long and I will only loose fitness. Before racing started I had my ftp up to 370. That was based on a 20min climb I did at 391w average power.
In above mentioned workout I had set out aiming at 5w over 105%ftp (=380w) as I was hoping my building had been progressing and I would be a little bit stronger again. Maybe I would have had a different result had I had the opportunity to wait another day.

When I do a 2x20min climbing workout I often aim for ~105% for the first interval and then as hard as I can with a slight negative split for the second. Sometimes I fall just short of my target, but sometimes I set a new pb amd hit just over. I do these a maximum of twice a week (usually wed and sat) with either a long easy ride or some 40/20s (or both) on Sunday. This normally allows me adequate recovery and I've previously used this to increase my Ftp for a short 3-4 week peak. Whenever possible I do a 1hr recovery spin on the turbo. This has worked in the past and often I see small gains week to week or fortnightly. Hence hoping to hold 5w more this time.

I think I will definately incorporate some over unders into some intervals to simulate racing/break away type intensity a bit better.

But next time I will aim for some intervals around the 90%ftp mark instead and see how that feels. Even if they're feeling hard on the day I'm pretty sure I could still handle it a few days after racing and maybe I'll successfully keep building through a race period.

Thanks for the constructive criticism guus. I think I needed an objective view(s) to tell me to shut up and rest. I'll take heed after my next race.

Still tempted to skip the race in 8 days time to focus on building for my A race 3 weeks away though. Fatigue management right right!

[boots2000]

You are forgetting that FTP and zones are a range.
Getting a higher power value on one day does not necessarily indicated increased fitness.
Also, you do not need to see the "best" power value for the training to have value.
It takes time. Fitness trends show over time, not always on a weekly basis.
I suggest that you outline a program with numbers that are ranges. And ranges that you can hit- even on a so-so day.
Right now you are falling victim to two things-
1.) You are becoming a self-tester and over-tester.
2.) You are making constant changes to what you think for FTP is (or should be)- Think longer term and make longer term plans.

[Tapeworm]

^ +1

Much truth in that post Boots. "PBs" can and do happen in training but once you have progressed beyond a beginner phase they can and should be less common. I would say that ideally PBs occur in races, but sometimes the nature of the race means that this cannot be expressed fully.

Aerobic gains are a very long term approach.

[KWalker]

IMO you're doing too much work in general. I find that I have a really tough time doing more than 1 mid-week session when racing hard and a lot of people I know are pretty similar, but it depends on the race. If you're new to racing you will get a hell of a lot more out of racing often and learning than optimizing your workouts. If that FTP can't get you with a lead group or off the front I'd focus more on bodyweight reduction or tactics/bike handling. That is a lot of power and if you use it right you should be absolutely killing lower level races.

Also, increasing FTP is nice, but its not what wins races. I would take experiences from races to identify weak points that the power curve might not show. For example, can you attack from FTP, recover, and attack again? How about your 2-5min power? IMO most amateur road races are much more dependent on 5-10min MMP and most race winning efforts tend to fall in this range. Can you bridge hard for 2-3min and ride across a gap? How are you in the wind? If your racing is that hard is it your riding or the pack dynamic? For me a race of .91 is either a stupid hard course or I'm racing really dumb. What about your sprint? In the US even at the cat 1 level locally most riders have a good sprint or a race comes down to a sprint.

There is much to learn from racing that it would make sense to me to chill out and kill a workout or group ride when fresh. I've also found personally that typical L4 work never really raises my FTP much and can be very mentally strenuous. That was a good strain when I first started riding and racing in so much as it helped with identifying what threshold felt like, but I've found shorter, sharper, and more variable sessions with intervals 6-12min in length just above FTP with and without changes in power to help far, far more for improving FTP and race conditions.

This workout could look like:
5x8min of 1min@115%, 6min@100%-105%, 1min@120%+
7x6min of 1min@110%, 3min@100%, 1min@110%, 1min@120%
4x12 of 2min@95%-100%, 1min@110%-120%, repeat for 12min

Or during a peaking period or perhaps during a big build week simply doing 2-3 fully maximal 5-8min efforts with long recovery periods. Efforts that make you want to hurl and go cross eyed. These are where you win or lose a race, get dropped, make a split, etc.

[bytombell]

I would agree with KWalker and focus on over-TH/lower VO2Max type workouts to help you see increasing gains in your FTP without piling on heaps of extra stress, especially at this time in the season (i.e. competition phase). As you mentioned you were quite geeky when it comes to physiology and performance, I'm sure you're familiar with a polarised model (Seiler) and how observation of a lot of top performers sees a surprisingly lower focus on FTP/TH work, and instead more logging of lots of time below and considerable but a tolerable amount of time above TH (extremes inform the mean type deal) As mentioned above, success in races now is going to be determined more by efforts in the 3-10min range, where working TH is more of a key pre-competition/build type of focus. From personal experience, FTP increases can really be boosted with the sort of thing KWalker suggests, which are shorter periods of higher intensity built into a longer interval, with the additional benefit of being more specific to your racing conditions. Something like 10M made up of repeating 2M 105% estimated FTP/2M 95% estimated FTP perhaps.

In reference to the recovery time after the race, it can really vary and definitely life stresses (which often slip under the radar a lot of the time) have a huge impact on 20min efforts, especially since longer intervals like that are quite mentally as well as physically demanding. As you've probably lit a lot of "emotional" or mental matches in that race, it might not have been quite enough time to get them back after a tough race, where if you'd gone out and done shorter VO2Max or even anaerobic capacity stuff, you might have been okay. One more thing is that you might have been lining yourself up for mild overtraining before your race if you've been trying to see increases in FTP numbers week on week, but it's only rearing its head now. How did you feel in the race? I'd just noodle around for a bit, or log some longer milage at easier wattages, but I understand that's hard for someone who can't train the very next day after failing to hit a planned workout. Definitely got to try and look at the long term and take an objective view of things, rather than be tempted to dig a deeper hole and hope to recover and supercompensate by the Saturday. Hope that all made sense.

[mr4fox]

Good info here guys. Really appreciate it. I won't expect to handle any hard training after future races. Maybe just and ling easy ride and wait a week before testing the legs. Thanks for the advice!

Last week's race was a course that doesn't suit me my strengths. Lots of short hard climbs in which the pack was climbing stupidly fast for the first hour and then starting to tire as a result. I tried to get to the front of the pack before every hill to give my self some "sliding space" so I could climb a little easier and not go so anaerobic. Even so I was looking down at my power meter and it was 450-550w repeatedly for anywhere from 30 seconds to 3 minutes. I've only started training high z5 and z6 stuff in the last 3months so can't say my body likes it that much yet. Early in the race I was attacking and bridging to up to other attacks, desperate to be in the successful break. But we didn't get away. After 90min I got stuck behind a crash and missed the winning break. I've trained with the guy that won. We're are at a similar level with regards to ftp/kg but he has the snap to make a break work and would outstrips me for sure. He's tronger on the short intervals as that's what he trains, specifically because he says thats what wins the most races here as most of the races in the area don't have and big climbs. Fwiw, he raced with the Norwegian national team about 8 years ago (I think) and he's 6-7 years younger than me with a smart race head on him. I could have sat in the bunch more but decided to use my power to stay near the front as I knew from previous races that I was among the strongest (many familiar faces at this race) so have the potential to make the break if I'm close by when it happens. Also, we don't have different categories here. We only have age groups but it's all mass start so the peleton is made up of anyone and everyone who doesn't get dropped.

My A race coming up in June is 130km and has 2 climbs. The second is a 8.8km cat2 climb at a steady 7%. I've Strava stalked last year's winner. He averaged 5.14w/kg on the second climb....after 90km of racing. I won't reach his power to weight but I may be able to stay with the break on the first climb this year. I let them go last year for fear of popping. If I'm feeling ok after the second climb and I'm back to the form I had in march I may have a chance of chasing him down on the 30km flat after the second climb. That's the dream anyway. I like a challenge.

I'm familiar with the 80:20 rule that so manybelite athletes exhibit with their training and I'm concious of this with my own training. When I do a 2x20min workout I normally have a total of about 2h20min z1 on the way to and from the climb. Plus recovery rides where ever possible.

In the 3 or 4 weeks preceding this bad week I have had less TSS, less training and less everything compared to the period if Feb through to easter. Despite getting significantly stronger back then I'm beginning to wonder if this slump is due to too much training all the way back at Easter(?). From what some of you are suggesting this may be the case.

I'll take it relatively easy for a couple weeks and see how I feel. Maybe some low sweet spot climbs if the legs feel ok and then a couple weeks before the A race, assuming all is going well, I'll try some ~10min intervals or the brutal sounding upper z4 workouts offered above by KWalker. The next race isn't until august so lots of time to become acquainted with them . Fingers crossed. And thanks again!!

[KWalker]

How much do you weigh?