Strength Training

A light bike doesn't replace good fitness.

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Dombi
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 4:49 pm

by Dombi

They looks strong because they do squats, deadlifts..etc? No upper body work like rows or chins?


What are the best exercises for the core?

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zirxo
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by zirxo

The best excercises for the core is actually squats, deadlifts..etc. :)

11.4
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Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 4:33 am

by 11.4

Strength training involves a tremendous amount of specificity, so you need to identify precisely what you are trying to improve and then ensure your training precisely matches that need. One also needs to be sure that one is training the complete set of requirements for a specific performance enhancement (e.g., don't build thigh strength without building commensurate posterior chain strength to utilize it).

Most weight training doesn't seem to work for most people because they don't correlate their training closely enough with their needs, or they miss one or more requirements. Cyclists have a tendency to miss the crucial contribution of adductors, abductors, and glutes, for example. What gets blamed on core weakness may still be a problem in the legs and no matter how massive one's thighs or simply how powerful the quads become, it doesn't translate into usable power.

The unfortunate thing is that the run of the mill cycling coach doesn't understand these issues well. You'll find better analysis of the issues here in this forum from people like Tapeworm and KWalker. But it's important to note that in each of your questions above, you seek to narrow down an exercise set ("What are the best exercises for the core?" just above). You can get a specific answer for that, but rarely a complete one.

The answers vary depending on your skill as well. Are you a leading winner in Cat 1-2 races? There's one answer to your question. Are you Cat 3 or Cat 4 pack fill? There's another answer. I wouldn't worry in the latter case about slight weight gains in the upper body, compared to having stronger shoulders to translate power better and also to protect your collar bones and shoulder joints from inevitable crashes. Are you over 40? There's the issue of muscle and bone atrophy -- weights are critical to maintain latent strength and mass so you don't have debilitating accidents or simply lose the fitness you've sought for so many years. I'd have a different answer for each of these individuals, depending on their particular issues, because each of us is an experiment of one and what I do may not be right for you.

KWalker
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Location: Bay Area

by KWalker

zirxo wrote:The best excercises for the core is actually squats, deadlifts..etc. :)

Not true 1 bit. Activation studies show that a push up actually recruits the core more than either of those movements. This is a good article that describes the results from said studies: https://www.t-nation.com/training/core-confusion

Also, being a former powerlifter I've seen this myth in real life so, so many times its ridiculous. Guys would avoid doing any ab or core work claiming that a high volume of squats and deadlifts was enough, but they didn't actually have well developed core strength. They could do weighted situps, but couldn't contract both their core and glutes/hamstrings at the same time with optimal force in either. Moreover, when they would do the key lifts they often had high degrees of anterior pelvic rotation despite being "strong" in the core.
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11.4
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by 11.4

KWalker wrote:
zirxo wrote:The best excercises for the core is actually squats, deadlifts..etc. :)

Not true 1 bit. Activation studies show that a push up actually recruits the core more than either of those movements. This is a good article that describes the results from said studies: https://www.t-nation.com/training/core-confusion

Also, being a former powerlifter I've seen this myth in real life so, so many times its ridiculous. Guys would avoid doing any ab or core work claiming that a high volume of squats and deadlifts was enough, but they didn't actually have well developed core strength. They could do weighted situps, but couldn't contract both their core and glutes/hamstrings at the same time with optimal force in either. Moreover, when they would do the key lifts they often had high degrees of anterior pelvic rotation despite being "strong" in the core.


Agree. The value of a pushup is actually that you're doing a plank at the same time. Do planks and reverse planks and it'll do better for you than almost anything, at least in terms of basic core development for cycling. And there's no risk of injury involved. That doesn't mean you don't benefit from squats or deadlifts. Those do contribute but they also help build strength and stability through the rest of your body. It's all one interconnected system and you need to build it all for any one part of it to perform well. And see other threads here on the value of squats and deadlifts for your cycling overall.

KWalker
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Location: Bay Area

by KWalker

The main issue is that "core strength" is sort of a misnomer. What it really is is a combination of mobility, neurological coordination, muscular strength, and movement specific functionality. Plus people often think that your core is just your abs when in reality it also includes any muscle that helps maintain pelvic stability. For a gymnast that might actually include the traps, erectors, and rhomboids. For a cyclist it includes the glues, hip flexors, and erectors.

For cycling the best core exercises would depend on where the rider is weak in the core. It can't hurt to hit one of these muscle groups in a quick core session 2-5 times per week as there is time. Its almost impossible to overtrain any of these muscle groups especially with limited time. What I've found works well for people is to tell them to do a core routine when they cook dinner and to foam roll their hips, back, and IT band if they can while they drink their morning coffee.
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drchull
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by drchull

I do add some core specific work to a lot of what the guys talk about above. A pistol squat though not going to happen. My knee hurts thinking about it. I used to have a lot of back pain on the bike. Better position, saddle and some core work has made a huge difference.

My preference is more antirotational type exercises like Paloff press, variations on plank movements, plank to side plank, mountain climbers etc. I also like to do some things on the exercise balls and wobble boards. Jacknife, reverse plank, and pushups I will often do on exercise ball. I like a few more active exercises like cable woodchops but mostly just hit the heavy bag for active core work.

KWalker
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Location: Bay Area

by KWalker

If your knee hurts doing a pistol squat you are:
-Doing them wrong.
-Terribly unbalanced.
-Arguably not mobile enough to properly fire the muscles to ride.

Learn them by setting up a stool or chair with books and slowly control the eccentric, briefly touch (not bounce) and come back up. You'd be surprised how fast you can learn these and how much coordination comes into play.

Planks are OK, but I prefer RKC planks and other variations that provide a shorter set length of 15-20s and maximal activation. Sitting there for minutes does nothing for building strength. This is not to say that's not what you do, but a good distinction to make. A long contraction is not a strong contraction.
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KheSanh
Posts: 40
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:49 am
Location: Scotland

by KheSanh

Dombi wrote:Hey

I´m from Germany and a huge fan of the forum.

I´m a road cyclist and i want to introduce some Strength/Powerlifting Training to get stronger and become a better sprinter. I´m a sprinter like Mark Cavendish or Andre Greipel.

I´m riding 5-6 days a week. Each ride is 2-5 hours long. Sometimes some short intensive(sprinting) rides. I want to train 3-4 days in the gym.

You know Alex Viada? He does a bit what i want.

What Strength Program could you recommend?



Mark Cavendish doesn't produce as much power as a lot of the other sprinters, what he does really well is that he can hold max or close to max for longer than a lot of the other sprinters so work on that aspect as well. Maybe incorporate supersets in as well. I use to do this routine without rest between exercises (all with dumbells); jump squats, one leg squats, one leg lunges, front lower and side lower, then 2 to 3 minutes rest between sets, do 4 sets. The front and side lowers, stand on a box or step; front lowers facing outwards lower one leg to the ground; side lowers face sideways on edge of box and lower one leg to the ground, try and use a high box to feel the burn. ;-) Good luck.

Citizenfox
Posts: 197
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:22 pm

by Citizenfox

After close to 30 years of training people, and by people I mean people like Royce Gracie, SEALS on base, hundreds of trainers, and many others like that, i don't do these debates anymore. There's many ways to skin the cat and no informed intelligent approach is "wrong."

One person argues for extreme specificity- that could work but is so complex that 90%, including professional trainers will screw that up, or their clients will. A few will see amazing results.

You can also argue for the opposite - just do squats, deadlift and bench ( or something like that) which will make you just generally "stronger" and ride more. Most recreational athletes, even serious ones, will benefit more from REAL specificity, i e doing their sport, then anything since they never have enough time.

Now that I'm back to "riding weight" I'm doing three drills:

1)Push-ups with a knee to elbow on both sides each rep
2)Walking lunges with weight
3)Body weight rows

All 3 work core hard, upper body stays plenty strong, the lunges hit the gluteal which can be a cycling deficieny etc.... Is it perfect, almost certainly not...but it's stupid simple, can be done almost anywhere and takes very little time or thought away from already very limited riding time. I would never not ride to workout. Only pros can do everything.

Totti
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Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:48 pm

by Totti

KWalker wrote:
Tapeworm wrote:^ I'd defer to KW, given his background in lifting, however this is something along the lines of what I do/prescribe for clients:-

Day 1:
Warm up
Back squat (prefer low bar ATM), 2 reps, 5 sets. (85% 1RM)
Bulgarian Split squat, 5 reps, 3 sets (per leg). (30% of squat 1RM)
Romanian Deadlifts, 5 reps, 3 sets. (60% of DL 1RM)

Day 2:
Warm up
Lunge, 5 reps, 5 sets (per leg) (30% of squat 1RM)
Deadlift, 3 reps, 5 sets. (80% 1RM)
+ any supplemental work needed - imbalances, "core".

The loads are conservative, risk vs reward, always with the aim of endurance cycling not strength athlete

Plyometric can be worked in, but yet to see meaningful gains from this, better just to be done on the bike. There are other funky things that can be done like post-activation potentiation, Litvinov conversions etc, but these are best done under the watchful eye of an experienced coached, and not on an internet forum.

As for *exactly* what the pros do? I'm yet to see any real details. Always snippets of info, never the whole thing.

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I think that the only thing you're lacking in the program rec is more the idea of periodization of work on and off the bike.

So the way I see it any strength work should proceed bike work by 1 block or a few weeks:

Gym/Bike
NM coordination (Circuits, usually of higher reps, with some basic strength movements)/Shorter efforts in the 10-20s range and basic anaerobic endurance (FTP level efforts and microburst type stuff)
Explosive strength/Same bike stuff as above
Maximal strength/Change the 10-20s bike work to focus more on the 5-10s range and maximal pedaling velocity
Mixed strength/explosiveness/Change the 5-10s work to work that uses a big gear. Hunter Allen's "Tractor Pulls" where you start in a huge gear at 60RPM and do a max effort sprint until you hit 90 RPM would be a good example.
Maintenance coordination/strength work/Standard build period workouts on the bike with 1 ride a week that incorporates maintenance of the work above.

Workout examples:

Coordination workout: 15-20 reps of Reverse lunges and glute bridges back-to-back with 60s rest. Step ups and maximal effort RKC planks same work:rest structure. Pistol squats and calve raises, same work:rest structure. Lastly some core movements. Try to ride the bike that day in any capacity and bonus points for even so much as spinning in zone 1 for a bit after. The idea is to develop basic NM coordination and recruitment or perhaps keep these patterns active during an intense block of racing and training.

Explosive Strength:
Warm up and do a bodyweight plyometric movement that focuses on concentric force i.e. box jumps or depth jumps.
Hip hinge movement such as front squat, RDL, back squat, and good morning. I'd do the first two over the last two to avoid loading the spine much. Focus more on bar speed than weight probably ending up around 75%-80% for sets of 2-3 with 30s rest. I'd aim for 8-10 sets adjusting weight for bar velocity as well as a heavy load.
Secondary weighted unilateral movement around 15-20 reps. Think Bulgarian split squats, lunges, or pistol squats.
Supportive circuit of something like face pulls, scapular push ups, hip thrusts, and calve raises.
Core work as necessary, probably hanging leg raises and some kind of pike movment.

Maximal strength:
Same idea as above but less of a focus on bar velocity and more on maximal strength. I personally always use the RTS method for finding weights, so I'd aim for a top set at a high RPE of 8.5-9 and then do 2-3 down sets at around 95% of that weight.
Same workout otherwise.

As for frequency I'd do 2 of these gym workouts a week and time permitting perhaps add a third circuit day at most. I don't think volume nor frequency need to be super high, but it would take some experimentation regarding recovery and whatnot. Again, its a stab in the dark as to what teams are currently doing as there isn't much information sharing in cycling. From what I've been told it tends to be sessions similar to these 2-3 times a week and the other days are more oriented towards basic circuits focused on stability and coordination (think bodyweight movements, gymnastic holds, and yoga).

All in all its really simple to program. I'd just want to do it so that whatever I do on the bike builds off the adaptations I got in the gym. I would also periodize it so the explosive and maximal work came in the "off-season" and/or early base period although those that focus on shorter events, track enduro stuff, or crits might do it in their early build as well.



Thank you for the informations. They are really helpful.

@KWalker...Where did you get that informations? Are there any good resources such as books or websites you like that you could recommend about that?

drchull
Posts: 376
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 6:38 pm

by drchull

KWalker wrote:If your knee hurts doing a pistol squat you are:
-Doing them wrong.
-Terribly unbalanced.
-Arguably not mobile enough to properly fire the muscles to ride.

Learn them by setting up a stool or chair with books and slowly control the eccentric, briefly touch (not bounce) and come back up. You'd be surprised how fast you can learn these and how much coordination comes into play.


Ding ding ding probably correct on all three counts. Multiple fractures and surgeries on left leg along with a lovely adhesive capsulitis in the hip. I might also add some chronic overuse knee issues in my good leg to that excellent list of three issues. Though I am mobile enough to ride with a 10-11cm drop but not mobile enough for much else when not regularly in the weight room.

fignonsbarber
Posts: 146
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:24 pm

by fignonsbarber

good info here. I just read the new Friel book, Faster after 50. A lot of good physiological reasoning on why you need strength training as you age.

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Rick
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Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:30 pm

by Rick

I have been weight training for a lot of years, and did it long before I got into cycling.
After getting into cycling, I have continued to do weight training for most winters.
I am certainly no expert, but I have tried to re-evaluate my weight training program every season to adjust to the latest research and recommendations of the acknowledged experts, both in general strength improvement and in cycling specific improvement.

The one rule that seems to be certain is that whatever program and methods you are using, you are doing it exactly wrong....according to some other equally well-respected and credentialed expert.
And, in my case, there does not seem to be any correlation with cycling improvement. In fact, my best seasons were after mild winters such that I just rode a lot all winter and never weight trained much at all.

But I still weight train, because it is probably good for overall health, and winter severely curtails road time, and what else am I going to do except get fat ? I do improve at weight lifting....it just doesn't seem to correlate to cycling performance at all.
Just one personal perspective. :beerchug:

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Bridgeman
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by Bridgeman

Barbell weights for upper body, etc.

Various stomach crunches and sit-ups for core.

3 times a week. Sessions are very intense.

Been doing this for about 3 weeks now and really like the results. Will continue until the end of January.

The payoffs are profoundly evident during short steel climbs. It does add an element of fatigue that translates into performance on the road though, but hey, it's December!

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