Long Solo Rides, how to make the best use of them

[han1337]

Hello fellow weenies,

I have more time at hand the next few months
Riding around here in Austria is great fun,
I am putting in lots of 3-4 hour+ rides because I have the time now and the weather is great too

How do you guys make the most of your longer rides outdoors solo?

I am also doing 4x8 min 105% FTP intervalls on a local hill or 2x 20 min inside at 95% FTP every 2-3 days depending on how I feel.

In which training zone should I spend my time outside?
I read that Zone 3 is really not that good to be in all the time. ("The Black Hole of Training Progress ")
But that is also what is the must fun

Crushing the few Hills on my way and then riding the way it feels most fun - would take me in some Z4, lots of Z3 and less Z2.

Would you force yourself to stay in Z2 (and therefore beeing able to hit it harder on the intervall days)?
Would you split it up somehow Z2 most of the time and some Z4?
Or would you just enjoy riding and hit it like you feel and why?


PS: I am also racing, but nothing too serious

My Fitness Goals are:
improving FTP
beeing able to ride 170k+ hilly grand fondos with 4k+ climbing

[bigfatty]

for FTP I have been doing 2 x 20 at threshold and this has really worked for me. 10% gain in a month but I am new to training and intervals.also have a look at sweet spot theory.

[Tapeworm]

@han1337 - "It depends."

What's your training history? When are the said events/races? How well have you been able to recover from similar training loads in the past? What happens to available training time after a few (3,4,5?) months?

So while you're pondering those questions...

Zone 3 work is very effective, just that the corresponding load also needs to be dealt with.

Generally speaking, if you have time to sink then you sink it, generally this means long rides in Zone 2. People seem to think Zone 2 is noodling around in the granny gear. Do proper z2 for over 3 hrs and you should be fair tired, not wrecked however. And then you can do another 3hr+ the next day and then the next... if you can recovery from it and fuel accordingly. There is a reason why huge volume is a key aspect to endurance sports.

And in a nominated z2 ride the "magical effects" do not disappear if you suddenly decide to push it a bit on a climb, or do a sprint for the traffic lights etc.

[Marin]

Where are you based? There are lots of rides in the Vienna now. I'll also be doing a 70-100k / 1500 vm one after work today

[han1337]

@han1337 - "It depends."

What's your training history? When are the said events/races? How well have you been able to recover from similar training loads in the past? What happens to available training time after a few (3,4,5?) months?

So while you're pondering those questions...

Zone 3 work is very effective, just that the corresponding load also needs to be dealt with.

Generally speaking, if you have time to sink then you sink it, generally this means long rides in Zone 2. People seem to think Zone 2 is noodling around in the granny gear. Do proper z2 for over 3 hrs and you should be fair tired, not wrecked however. And then you can do another 3hr+ the next day and then the next... if you can recovery from it and fuel accordingly. There is a reason why huge volume is a key aspect to endurance sports.

And in a nominated z2 ride the "magical effects" do not disappear if you suddenly decide to push it a bit on a climb, or do a sprint for the traffic lights etc.

I have started roadbiking about 4 years ago.
I only did lots of short 30k rides after work, then joined the local club, busted my ass until I could stick with them till the end of the rides. (75k in evenings, 150k+ Weekends)
(that meant 2.5 or more hours at avg 180+ heart rate for me at the time and sleeping very well)

Now I am doing very well, it is very easy for me to stick with them, no matter what they do.
If I hold back and dont push it, just take my turn, maybe hammer up some hills, it feels very easy for me.
Heartrate avg has now dropped to 145 even on the faster rides, Normalized Power is 235W for a faster ride.

Also raced a few times, got 3rd in a 80k flat race (luck, good timing) and top 20s place in a big grand fondo with 2k of climbing.

My weight is 67 kg now, 173 cm, body fat 9% or lower (I hit the weights and have a very strict meal plan)
FTP 255
5 min max 390 w (there is some potential for my FTP to grow)

I can do 3,5h Rides 5 days in a row without problems.
I will be tired and miss some power, but I will enjoy it anyway. (after the first 30 minutes )

When I do 2x20 or 4x8 after more than one day of 3,5 hours of z3/z2 riding I will clearly miss an edge and loose 20-30 Watts maybe more if I am completely destroyed.
Question is, will this really harm my plan to increase ftp?
Are those long rides I enjoy very much giving me an advantage in the future, or are they just not very useful for my racing?

I dont really want to peak train for the races, I want to increase my FTP and stay at this higher FTP level.
(300W+ and maybe 66 kg would be a dream )

Maybe taper off a bit for a race, but not really peak for a specific event.

I ride my bike because I really love to ride it, also the things round it like racing and some friendly competition with friends.
That is also why I dont plan my weeks, I just want to put in as much quality riding time as I possibly can, because I like it.

Maybe I can formulate my question a bit more specific:
I want to know if it would be better to shift my Z3 outdoor rides more into the Z2 zone, to be in better form for my intervall days
or
Just hit everthing with the intensity I can reach on given day and get the same FTP results out of it?

for FTP I have been doing 2 x 20 at threshold and this has really worked for me. 10% gain in a month but I am new to training and intervals.also have a look at sweet spot theory.

I have seen this effect and it is working for me too, not as well as for you, but it still does improve my ftp a bit over time.
The thing is ... weather is great and I dont like doing 2x20 min outside very much.
Because there are cars, and lots of crossings .. I really cant stick to my FTP without getting myself into a dangerous situation if I do it for the whole 20 minutes.
There is no hill with 20 minutes uphill near me.
(the nearest would be an 1,5 hours car travel, but thats not interressting if you want to go there every 3rd day)
Thats why I like to do the 2x20s on bad weather days or when I have to work long in the evening.

[glepore]

Just a comment, looking at what you've written so far, several days of z2-3 for multiple hours, one day of supra lt, and two days of 2x20 sounds like a pretty big week. You do have a rest or active rest day in there somewhere? And if you're doing 2x20's if a bit tired do them sst rather than near 100%.

Don't dig a hole.

One good way to determine need for rest is if you are on a rational schedule and go out to do a specific workout but can't hold the target power, STOP. Take a rest day.

Oh yeah, 2x20's on the road-you might need to focus on NP rather than actual 2x20's if traffic etc interrupt. Not ideal, but better than nothing.

[sanrensho]

Just hit everthing with the intensity I can reach on given day and get the same FTP results out of it?

To me, that sound like classic "hammerhead" where you just go out and ride as hard as you can on a given day.

I've been there (not at your volume), and your gains will be marginal compared with going easy on your recovery days, and harder on your intensity days.

[KWalker]

This thread is about long solo rides, except that nothing you write is actually about the topic.

3.5hrs IMO is not a long solo ride. Mid-length or so. For me the length of an average road race.

If you think a long solo ride will help, make it 4-6hrs aka go long not halfway long. On these rides I like to throw in a few efforts on climbs, but go more off of perceived exertion depending on what makes sense to work on.

The fact that you are so destroyed you can't hold threshold power, a theoretical 1hr max power, for 1/3 of the length of time you should be able to hold it, tells me that either your FTP is set too high, your recovery is terrible, and/or your diet is off. A 20min effort at FTP should be doable daily. If not, change one of these variables. If I were you I'd rather do:

Day 1- FTP/z5 work 90-120min
Day 2- Whatever not done on day 1 90-120min
Day 3- Long solo ride, totally drain the tank
Day 4- Off, eat up huge
Day 5- Roll out and see how you feel and if you even think Day 1's intervals won't be happening, spin lightly and start the block over the following day. If you feel good start the block again this day.

[Tapeworm]

I would say given the training history you've provided and where you are currently at then something along the lines of what KW posted would work well.

3hrs is on the cusp of being an "endurance" ride - basically an endurance rise is when you have to seriously consider fuelling strategies. Probably the factor limiting most amateurs is the time to training "properly", ie: actually invoking serious endurance AND being able to properly recover ie: not having to worry too much about work, study, family, kids etc.

So if you have the ability to lay down some serious hours then take it. If you can do seriously long stuff day in day out then small "sprinkling" of efforts may be all that needs to be added, eg: 5hrs Z2 - during ride do 6 x [30sec Z6/30sec z1], minimum 20min RI, 4 x 1min Z6, 1min Z1 - resume Z2... or something along those lines.

Beyond this, get a coach

[han1337]

Thank you very much for your replys.
I apprechiate your contributions very much and think that some of the information is very likely going to help me improve.

I will absolutely try going really long 5h+
This will likely solve the question if I should go Z3 or Z2 too


KWalkers, the schedule you posted sounds really great.
I will try to execute it in a similar way and see what happens

Day 1- FTP/z5 work 90-120min
Day 2- Whatever not done on day 1 90-120min
Day 3- Long solo ride, totally drain the tank
Day 4- Off, eat up huge
Day 5- Roll out and see how you feel and if you even think Day 1's intervals won't be happening, spin lightly and start the block over the following day. If you feel good start the block again this day.


On the Z5 Days ..
Is it ok to hit the Power Targets on Interval Sessions with Normalized Power outside (Traffic) like glepore recommended?

Or would it be a lot better to do them inside on the trainer and really stick to the Power Target.
( I will do this in the winter for sure, but in the Summer time, it just plain sucks )


Do you guys think it is ok for me to hit the weights and do some squats and core training on rest / light days?
Or should they be completely rest without any exercise.


My strenght/core routine looks like this: (it is not too taxing..)

3 Sets 2 minute Plank
2 Sets 20 Side Planks on each Side
4 Sets 14 Reps Squat with 65 kg
2 Sets 14 Reps Lunge with 30 kg barbell weight
some stretches which help my back

[devinci]

I would do the strength work on Z2 days, not on easy days.

This thread is not about long rides anymore....

[KWalker]

I would say given the training history you've provided and where you are currently at then something along the lines of what KW posted would work well.

3hrs is on the cusp of being an "endurance" ride - basically an endurance rise is when you have to seriously consider fuelling strategies. Probably the factor limiting most amateurs is the time to training "properly", ie: actually invoking serious endurance AND being able to properly recover ie: not having to worry too much about work, study, family, kids etc.

So if you have the ability to lay down some serious hours then take it. If you can do seriously long stuff day in day out then small "sprinkling" of efforts may be all that needs to be added, eg: 5hrs Z2 - during ride do 6 x [30sec Z6/30sec z1], minimum 20min RI, 4 x 1min Z6, 1min Z1 - resume Z2... or something along those lines.

Beyond this, get a coach

What Tapeworm is describing is essentially what a lot of pros do, except they consistently have that 4-6hr volume. They also eat really well, rest really well, and have little to no stress to support this. Lots of amateurs think that they can accomplish the same, but can't get anywhere close. Finding the right balance is something most people never do.

A lot of 3hr rides never got me fast. I thought more volume=better, but unless you're seriously committing to a higher volume program, it becomes just as useless as any other theory in which you do a lot, but not quite enough i.e. riding tons of zone 3 and never going easier or harder.

Lets break it down though in metrics:
If you do 3hrs of zone 2 the ride is only probably 120-130TSS, maybe 150 if you're on the tempo range. If you do that 6 days a week that is 720TSS- 780TSS. 18hrs total.

If you do my plan above you end up with Day 1 and 2 being 120-130TSS, and day 3 being 200-250TSS. Day 4 is nothing or maybe 10 if you spin. Day 5 and 6 are another 120-130 a piece and Day 7 ends up being another 200-250. The conservative estimate is 880TSS, but with slightly less riding time and more recovery. To me its a no brainer. Less time, more recovery, higher quality, higher specificity.

You see this a lot with lower level racers and I myself fell into this group for years. People think that somehow going from 12hrs a week to 16-17hrs a week is "high volume" training, but in reality its not. Also, think of it from a training standpoint. As you build CTL towards an event its easier long term to leave head room in some regard. If you build at a steady 12-13hrs a week and get to say 90-95CTL, its much easier to extend a few of your rides or add some threshold efforts into the long ride to raise TSS and get that last bump before a taper. If you get to that level super fast, but without many ways on which to actually increase TSS you stagnate. Now in the example above it would take longer on the lower TSS/higher volume model, but good luck trying to start your threshold work when your CTL is already high and you've done none of it.

[Tapeworm]

^ and this touches on the key points mentioned above is that high volume is awesome but you *have* to be able to have "hard" recovery as well. Everything costs, everyone pays (eventually). That varies a lot person to person, but it has to be done.

Another thing to consider. Personally, I put little "stock" in ONLY using the various metrics used for tracking stress (ATL,CTL,TSS etcetera) as it tends to grossly underestimate the total load of stress a person is experiencing. The pithy saying is "Stress is non-specific." You may have time for a 6 hr ride but if your day job is highly stressful, and you're doing your thesis and the wife is divorcing you etcetc this *has* to be taken into account, and often doesn't. And people end up in a hole, despite their PMC looking all rosy. YMMV.

[han1337]

First cycle completed.

It was raining so I did a 3x20(95%ftp) Trainerroad workout (Kickr in ERG Mode ), making up for 103 TSS
(that 3rd one really hurt)

Question is if 3x20 are really necessary or if 2x20 are enough for FTP improvement.
Did this workout on day1 and day2.
206 TSS

First really long solo Ride done yesterday 420 TSS, 170k, 2400hm, 6h
I was not completely destroyed yet, but felt very fatigued.
Today rest day at work.

If I can keep this up that would make 1259 TSS in the first week.

[boysa]

What the heck? You NEED a coach.