long old man time crunched training post and questions

A light bike doesn't replace good fitness.

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Citizenfox
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Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:22 pm

by Citizenfox

When I recently got back into cycling I went out and read Coogin, Friel's "Fast after 50" and Carmichael's "Training for the Time Crunched Cyclist"

I was actually really encouraged since the message seemed to be (from Friel)that after 50 (I'm 55) it's doing the really hard shorter efforts that hold of "the decline" and from Carmichael that you can actually get "race" fit, with a bunch of caveats, doing under 10 hours a week. This is handy when your my age, have 2 kids under 7, and lead a global team which means weekly travel.

I didn't have a bike, and decided to wait for my bonus to buy one, so I did 3 months on the spin bike, mostly going when their wasn't a class and doing workouts from one of the books. It did have the advantage of having a power meter, I'm sure a crappy one, but I used the same bike every time so I had something to go on. I also was good "club" rider 15 years ago so I knew how it should feel.

I did get my bike about a month ago and although I did finally go out with other guys the last couple weekends, I'm really still getting my position and handling skills back. Made the mistake of thinking I'd be "mellower" but I've already got the bug to race.

In about 15 weeks now I've lost 25lbs ( a sort of weightlifter fit 205 to an approaching cyclist 180) and by my best guesstimate increased my pathetic FTP a lot. According to Friel's formula when I get to 170lbs 315W would be a "desirable" FTP (2x weight - .5% for every year over 35).

For context I have an extensive history in training elite athletes and "operators" mostly around martial arts, body weight, Kettlebells etc....so I understand the theories. In reading multiple threads here I agree with Tapeworm's advice that there are "many ways to skin the cat". My friend Pavel Tsatsouline calls it "the same, only different". The principles apply but the details were not handed to Moses on a stone tablet.

So questions for others ahead of my curve:

Anyone racing on a strictly "time crunched" kind of plan? What has worked and what hasn't? I don't see myself doing more than one long ride a week, and that under 3 hours, like ever. Can't come home after 3-4 days of travel and say "see you in 6 hours have fun with the kids" and frankly don't want to.

There was good thread about 2x20 vs shorter x harder - i find even doing 2x20 my mind drifts back to work. If I'm leaning toward Crit racing can I just do the 1/1 work/rest ratio sets from 30 secs to like 5 minutes?

My first goal will be to move from the B group on the weekend ride 20-21 mph) to the A ( 24+)

Obviously my breakneck progress will start to slow and I'd love to hear any thoughts, anacdotes or anything that's worked.

Hopefully Tapeworm will weigh in despite our Pithy PM discussion.

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Tapeworm
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by Tapeworm

***Shifts weight to weigh in...***

Well, whilst I'm not in the age cat, I have the usual life commitments (2 jobs, 3 kids, wife etc).

For a start, I don't like the term "time-crunched". Realistically this applies to everyone who's not being paid to ride a bike in my book. You make time, and that will be sometimes be 3hrs in a given week, and sometimes it will be 15hrs (that's a very good week).

For example, one week the Mrs was away at a conference leaving me to run the household. On one day I did:- 1hr spin @ 5am, 2hrs with Jnr in the bike trailer (after dropping off the big two,doing the laundry and prepping dinner), 1.5hrs on the erg watching tv whilst all the kiddies were in bed. The next day was another 5am start - 3.5 x 5min intervals (15sec on/off), was supposed to do four but one of the kids woke up early so that was an aborted set. Not ideal, but better than nothing. If there's nothing on in the evening I'll hope on the "bike desk" and tap out some easy Z1 while doing stuff on the compute (like forum posts!). This low level stuff won't make *that* much difference, but its extra hours on a bike and as long as it is accounted for and recovered from it will only help.

On to the training. Broadly, I have the best success thus far in a greater focus in the quality of short, very hard intervals, and seasoned with the odd 2x20min, tempo and LSD ride when I can get them in. I had a training log in this sub-forum for my 2013 season... which didn't go to well, too many irons in too many fires. I have all but ditched any physical activity that's not cycling, or highly specific to the goal of cycling (ie: I lift 1x per week, "structural" work, making sure I don't do a disc while lifting a child). And this has been rewarded with best from I've ever had and real, actual wins (a rarity for me!). However these cannot be done more than ~2-3 times per week unless its a very specific build/cycle and the corresponding recovery occurs.

So an *example* week may have been something like leading to big TT in ~4 weeks time:-
Mon: 4 x 5 min of 15 sec on/off, 4mins RI
Tues: 2hrs Z3 "kitchen-sink" ride (has a bit of everything)
Wed: 1.5hrs Z2
Thurs: 4 x 5min efforts (under over format, 30sec @ 110% FTP, 30sec 90% FTP), 3min RI
Fri: 1hr z2
Sat: Long easy ride 2-3hrs z2
Sun: Race (or 4 x 15mins @ 101-105% FTP and aero testing). 3min RI.

Note: the lack of a proper rest day. It will occur, one way or another. Sick kid(s), work trip, etc etc. Hence *I* don't write them into my schedule, I'll end up with more of them than I want anyhow.

Other "fun" and short sessions (power would be based of data from similar durations and target wattages):-
30x 30sec on/off
8 x [2min45sec tempo @ ~70rpm, 15 sec sprint from the same gear, then get back to the tempo ASAP]. Repeat block.
10 x 1 min on/off
13 x [30sec on, 15 sec off] (see post a few down about the long/short intervals)
6 x [4mins on, 1min30sec off].


Given your background I think the hardest and difficult thing that many find switching to cycling is:- it is an abysmal time sink, and adaptations take a very long time to come around once you've moved past the low hanging fruit. You plug in hours and hours of training and sometimes nothing happens, for months, but then Lo! Form arrives and you advance to the "Next level". Whereas strength conditioning the results are pretty clear, and don't require "interpretation"... usually.

And no matter how many anecdotes there are of such-and-such only trains for 6 hrs a week and crushes everyone it is, for most, a load of horse-shit (not to mention that cyclists, being human, lie - a lot). You may only be able to get in 10hrs a week, but sometimes it may be 12, or only 5. Alls you can do is alls you can do.

But the more you give yourself over to being "a cyclist", you will be rewarded...eventually. So keep pushing for 11hrs per week. Maybe 12...

Finally - embrace the erg. Yeah, it's not as fun as being on the road but for time effective sessions there's no better way. My personal preference is for simple time/power feedback for shorter intervals (sub 10min) and video course simulation for longer stuff. Especially for TT prep. For certain intervals I prefer the erg, like the 15sec microbursts. Doing these on the road just is suboptimal, traffic, road furniture blah blah blah.

I should write a book.
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG

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HillRPete
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Location: Pedal Square

by HillRPete

The older you get, the more can strength training delay the decline.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/hea ... e21149953/

Also, small kids at your age plus work travel, I pull my hat to you. For me it's been working out well to back away from racing the first two years after every time the family grows, to avoid burning myself out between work, the loved ones, and sports. What good is all the time on the bike when you can not pay kids' education in the end.

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Tapeworm
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by Tapeworm

^ exercise in general helps delay the decline. But everyone should weight train, regardless of age.
Image
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG

Citizenfox
Posts: 197
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:22 pm

by Citizenfox

Tapeworm - really appreciate the detailed response. I wrote this article years ago for Pavel. I think you will see we are aligned on the exact type of chaos theory planning you're talking about.

http://dragondoor.bmobilized.com/?ref=h ... ization%2F

I totally embrace the erg. Since I had to buy absolutely everything at once over the last couple months, bike, kit, shoes... I haven't bought a trainer yet, hence why I'm still popping over to the globo gym and using the spin bike. Trainer is next.

I don't mean to use the "time crunched" thing as an excuse and totally agree - there are people who train and people who don't. When I was still training clients a guy told me he didn't have time to train that weekend. 10 minutes later he gave me a blow by blow of the Eagles game he watched for 3 hours on Sunday. I train every day I'm home either "erg" if it's crappy out or outside. I live in a very hilly development and have a loop I do 2or 3x that very effective. It was more a reaction to constantly seeing posts and Instagram pics about these weekly epics.

Also like you say I never "schedule" a day off. I will always have a day, like today, staying in a crappy hotel booked last minute and have to be at the White House by 9:30 (had to throw that in, it's my first time) where I'm either not training or like today I walked on the treadmill on a high incline for an hour and least burned some cals, since I still have 10lbs to lose. If I'm in a city that has a Flywheel I'll schedule a 6:00 am spin class and bring shoes. Or I'll do 5 days straight and just rest, let's call it mini - super compensation cycling.

I'm not overly into data crunching, but I will be a trainer that measures watts for the interval work outs and to test FTP progress. I need to more of the 15/15 and 30/30 sec sets. Having the trainer will save me a couple hours a week of not driving and I can add more sets.

So here's a very efficient structural drill you might lik which is basically all I've been doing outside of cycling:

Start in the top push-up plank position with 15lb DBs in your hands. Do a push-up back to top position, then slowly bring left knee to left elbow, then right to right, now row the left DB then the right. The closer your feet are together the harder you have to fire the core. Rinse and repeat, always going slowly until you start to sag. 15 minutes of that is plenty.

droid1973
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Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2014 5:35 pm

by droid1973

Very Interesting post

HillRPete
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Location: Pedal Square

by HillRPete

Tapeworm wrote:^ exercise in general helps delay the decline. But everyone should weight train, regardless of age.

Sure, but isn't this thread about balancing training with everything else and where to set priorities. The discussed research is very specific about preserving/gaining endurance through weight training at a certain age.

Citizenfox
Posts: 197
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:22 pm

by Citizenfox

Right - you want to maintain flexibility and stability so you can have an aero position. You need to do some weight bearing stuff to prevent you're bones from turning to mush. That's why I do the treadmill stuff. You want to maintain general strength, hence the push-ups, planks and rows etc....

People often over complicate all that stuff.

KarlC
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Location: De Portola Wine Trail Temecula CA

by KarlC

Citizenfox wrote:When I recently got back into cycling I went out and read Coogin, Friel's "Fast after 50"


I just started riding and turned 50, so this interest me but Im not a reader so I dont have the patience to read a 300+ page book.

Maybe this book is over my skills and knowledge anyway. I also don't plan to race, I just want to keep up with the buddies I ride with that are younger, in better shape, have raced in the past and have much more experience.

My main current issues look to be .....

- Hills, especially the longer efforts
- Keeping up with their pace for longer efforts

As an example we will join a group on Tuesday and Wednesday nights that does a 2x2 TT type ride in San Diego that can be very windy.
- The 1st 30 mins is slow warm up at 16-18 mph - Hard for me not to get bored
- Next 30 mins is 20-24 mph - This feels right, but if I'm doing my turns at pulling into the wind I'm done by the end of the 30 mins.
- The last 30 mins most of the group is done or close to it, speed is now 25-30+ mph with a rotating 1 man line up and a sprint at the end of the "race". - I have tried this a few times but can only hold on for a few mins.

Weekend are usually 2-3 hour rides Saturday and Sunday, with a good mix of hills. By mid ride they are waiting a bit for me or dubbing back and passing me again.

I've lost 15 lbs I did not know I had to lose (Now at 175lbs and 6') and am making progress. Are there any other good short reads ?

I've been thinking about running a bit as it would be ez for me to fit in a few mornings, hoping this would help build my leg strength and endurance.
C64 My Sixty 4 SR EPS 12

Citizenfox
Posts: 197
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:22 pm

by Citizenfox

KarlC wrote:
Citizenfox wrote:When I recently got back into cycling I went out and read Coogin, Friel's "Fast after 50"


I just started riding and turned 50, so this interest me but Im not a reader so I dont have the patience to read a 300+ page book.

Maybe this book is over my skills and knowledge anyway. I also don't plan to race, I just want to keep up with the buddies I ride with that are younger, in better shape, have raced in the past and have much more experience.

My main current issues look to be .....

- Hills, especially the longer efforts
- Keeping up with their pace for longer efforts

As an example we will join a group on Tuesday and Wednesday nights that does a 2x2 TT type ride in San Diego that can be very windy.
- The 1st 30 mins is slow warm up at 16-18 mph - Hard for me not to get bored
- Next 30 mins is 20-24 mph - This feels right, but if I'm doing my turns at pulling into the wind I'm done by the end of the 30 mins.
- The last 30 mins most of the group is done or close to it, speed is now 25-30+ mph with a rotating 1 man line up and a sprint at the end of the "race". - I have tried this a few times but can only hold on for a few mins.

Weekend are usually 2-3 hour rides Saturday and Sunday, with a good mix of hills. By mid ride they are waiting a bit for me or dubbing back and passing me again.

I've lost 15 lbs I did not know I had to lose (Now at 175lbs and 6') and am making progress. Are there any other good short reads ?

I've been thinking about running a bit as it would be ez for me to fit in a few mornings, hoping this would help build my leg strength and endurance.


Here's tons of shorter articles by Friel on the web.

KarlC
Posts: 1028
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:08 am
Location: De Portola Wine Trail Temecula CA

by KarlC

Good point, I found Friel web site and searched aging as he suggested in one of his blogs, lots of good short reads for old guys like me......

http://joefriel.typepad.com/blog/search.html
C64 My Sixty 4 SR EPS 12

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

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