5-4-3 min intervals.

[whydobearsxplod]

I was recently given the following workout:

Warm-up
Repeat 3 times(
5 min @ 90% ftp
1 rest
4 @ 100%
1 rest
3 @ 110%
5 rest)
Warm-down

The TSS and NP of this workout are about the same as a 2x20@95%. However, I find it much easier mentally and slightly easier physically.

I would like to get some input on the potential effectiveness of this workout. Is this an appropriate 2x20 substitute?

[djconnel]

I personally feel confused over all the "short + intense as good as long + steady" studies I've seen reported. In the end I feel a lot of training is psychological -- preparing for the sort of efforts one will encounter in competition. If a race tends to have 3-5 minute efforts, then this seems like it would be better. OTOH if you're doing a hillclimb which will take longer, learning to tolerate the steady effort of a straight 20 minute block seems preferable. If you hit a 20 minute climb in a race and you've been doing 20 minute efforts in training you're going to be fully confident that this is something you can handle. On the other hand you might not be confident of your ability if a race were to hit a series of short rollers, each of which required a higher effort.

An issue with this is the 1 minute recoveries aren't enough to fully recover. So it's not a pure medium interval workout. But given multiple ways to get similar physiological benefit I'd say go with the one which gives the best behavioral benefit.

[rma]

I personally feel...

I was just writing something similar, but DJCONNEL summarized it for me!

[boysa]

Make that two of us! I agree, the longer sets are as much for my mind as my body. I gain so much confidence from 2x20s done at 100%.

[Tapeworm]

An issue with this is the 1 minute recoveries aren't enough to fully recover.

That's the point.

[Tapeworm]

I was recently given the following workout:

Warm-up
Repeat 3 times(
5 min @ 90% ftp
1 rest
4 @ 100%
1 rest
3 @ 110%
5 rest)
Warm-down

The TSS and NP of this workout are about the same as a 2x20@95%. However, I find it much easier mentally and slightly easier physically.

I would like to get some input on the potential effectiveness of this workout. Is this an appropriate 2x20 substitute?

The TSS and NP are metrics to track training and performance and do not necessarily tell the whole story of the stimulus induced by the training session and the specificity of it.

There are many, many ways to build FTP and short(er) types of intervals can do this. However there is both a physiological and mental aspect to each session. Is the above format more akin to race style efforts in a road race? Or is there a particular TT course which has hills of that kind of magnitude. It does NOT need to be 100% specific to race demands at all times but rather a consideration when planning training.

And as mentioned if you find it easier to hack mentally then you'll be able to perform more effective training more often.

[whydobearsxplod]

Thanks for the input guys. This is helpful. Here's some more background:

My current training, when I ride indoors, usually involves either doing 2x20 at 95-100% workouts or 4x 3+3 @ 120-125%. Lately I have found the 2x20 workouts quite mentally taxing and I dread them while the shorter vo2 go down just fine. This 3-4-5 workout was given to me as a sort of alternative to the 2x20. While I do find it easier to handle and think it provides some beneficial training stimulus- I probably won't use it to replace 2x20 very often except in instances where I just can't bear to do the longer intervals and this workout is more motivating.

[boysa]

Perhaps consider 4x8' (2'RI) @105‰. There has been some research showing these to be extremely effective. Perhaps more palatable if you are struggling with 20'.

[whydobearsxplod]

Thanks boysa. Can you direct me to the study?

I tried these today and found them more palatable than 20 minute effort but still physically difficult even with 4 minute rest interval.

[boysa]

This came about from a Stephen Seiler study on Polarized training. Here's a few links I was able to find quickly:
http://www.bikepartsreview.com/Polarize ... TmGk61Viko
http://www.canal-insep.fr/fr/training-p ... seiler-mov


They should be hard. IMO, the worst part is the 2' Recovery Interval. Two minutes is NOTHING. I had read someone saying the place to start is 105% FTP, and go up from there. Truthfully, I've never been above 105%! Not for four reps. When I do them, it goes:

#1. Force myself to stay calm and keep it only at 105%. Don't go over, because I know what's coming up.
#2. Feeling strong, steady.
#3. Second half starts to hurt.
#4. Disgusting.

During the past two winterw, I was stuck inside every day due to the New England weather. I have a Kickr and I used it strictly in Ergo mode, and although it's been debated if this is the best method, for ME it was tremendous. Over the last two winters I've made large gains, and the results have been gratifying. I keep things simple. Very simple.

[whydobearsxplod]

Well, I'll work up to 2 minute rest.

I notice they were done at 90% vo2 power in the study. Thats probably harder than 105% ftp for most, no?

[djconnel]

Apologies: I should have written "a feature of this" rather than "an issue with this". The one minute recoveries are super hard. Blink and they're gone.

Kevin Metcalfe, an amazing masters racer near hear, does 2x20s all winter on the trainer, despite excellent weather. Busch monotony obviously doesn't hurt his fitness too much.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rainerhq]

2x 20sec?

[Nefarious86]

Make that two of us! I agree, the longer sets are as much for my mind as my body. I gain so much confidence from 2x20s done at 100%.

Before a 235km/4100vm ride I did in March I was pushing out 3x20 starting at 90% and building with the last 4 mins at FTP. The mental boost these sets gave were probably more beneficial than the physical benefits when it cane to the last climb let alone the last 20km into a head wind

Personally I do allot of 6x5m @ FTP indoors on the kickr in ergo mode and throw in 3x20m with a ramp rate I made up myself if I'm feeling good and confident I can stay on top of it. . Outside I tend to just ride and pick terrain/distances that suit the goal I have at the time. One of the indoor session's per week is usually done at 50-60rpm to simulate a long grind.

Probably my "messiest" 3x20. https://www.strava.com/activities/259184756/overview

Whatever you do, make sure you can complete each workout and not dig yourself a mental hole by blowing up 3/4 of the way through workouts. Just my 2c.

[Citizenfox]

An issue with this is the 1 minute recoveries aren't enough to fully recover.

That's the point.

This. ^^

It's the interval that's important. 8x15 sec with 5 min rest I between each is nothing, but 8x15 sec with 15 secs rest is hard. And you could 4 or 5 sets like that in the same time. Although obviously the training for the RAAM and a crit will look off different, it doesn't change the energy systems being hit at different levels of FTP. If you never go ever 105% of FTP for reps your leaving a lot on he table and wasting a lot of time.