For those that don't have a power meter

A light bike doesn't replace good fitness.

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Pieter
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by Pieter

Tapeworm wrote:How do you know you're training hard?

If you feel your legs and lungs burning. Don't feel well any more and so on. It can work if you just do really hard or easy rides. Of course if you want to do 20 min intervals, it is not that precise.

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Tapeworm
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by Tapeworm

Slagter wrote:
Tapeworm wrote:How do you know you're training hard?


I finally get where you are challenged. You simply can't feel, when you are going hard and when you are going easy. It all makes sense why you only are able to workout with PM.

But you needn't worry. We are a lot of guys, who aren't challenged the way you are....


So, what of the sessions where power is not visible, and rely on data AFTER the fact?

And having worked with many athletes - people's perception of "hard" varies. A lot. Sometimes day to day, sometimes within a session. Our brains constantly lie to us. Objective data helps to realign this. People who don't like what they see need to have a good hard look at themselves and ask exactly why they can't hack the numbers.
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG

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Citizenfox
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by Citizenfox

Tapeworm wrote:How do you know you're training hard?


You can't be serious, right?

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Tapeworm
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by Tapeworm

Sure. Why not? Humour me.
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG

mattr
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by mattr

And this gets back nicely to my first post on this topic, training without a PM gives you no more than junk miles. Apparently.

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Tapeworm
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by Tapeworm

Which is a load of rubbish, but I know the attitude persists.
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG

Citizenfox
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by Citizenfox

Humor you, don't think so.

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Tinea Pedis
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by Tinea Pedis

Citizenfox wrote:Humor you, don't think so.

But you were so outraged.

What was the basis for the outrage?

Citizenfox
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by Citizenfox

I don't think "you're kidding" is "outraged". I really was wondering since I don't know you, maybe you were tongue in cheek. Obviously you weren't, which is kind of amazing. But I'm not up for internet "humoring" which means you already know you're right but maybe what I write will be amusing.

DanW
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by DanW

Well this went downhill quickly ;)

One big change in the last few years is the falling price of PM's which makes them far more accessible to use if you wish. If just SRM existed then I'd also be trying to justify riding by feel and would never know what I was missing (just personal opinion).

An interesting thought for the people who prefer not to use a PM... can you consider or see any benefits to riding on feel (if this is your preferred way to ride) then using the PM to give you objective information to fine tune thereafter?

Another interesting observation (at least amongst UK MTB racers who also have had good success at regional and national road races) is that a lot of people don't start getting properly fast until around Masters age* and talking to them it is usually along the lines of taking all that time to properly understand their body and what works for them or doesn't. This would seem to suggest that a lot of very good riders don't actually know how to ride on feel and the trial and error takes rather a long time!

*not to be confused with why US domestic roadies are alleged to have gotten fast all of a sudden ;)

Slagter
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by Slagter

DanW wrote:
An interesting thought for the people who prefer not to use a PM... can you consider or see any benefits to riding on feel (if this is your preferred way to ride) then using the PM to give you objective information to fine tune thereafter?



I don't se any benefits for me by training on feel. I just haven't found the need to invest in a PM yet. I'm not against training with PM. I just don't understand why some of you don't think, that training without PM doesn't get you anywhere, when my own and a lot of my teammates experience proves otherwise.

pushstart wrote:
I love it when people just assume that their one experience negates anyone else's.



+ 1

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Tapeworm
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by Tapeworm

:doh: :doh: :doh:

Have a look at serious training sans powermeter.

It is effective, no one, and certainly not me, are claiming otherwise. The sessions, the micro/macro cycles don't really change whether you have a PM or not.

However, those who are serious about training log things like:- time, distance, speed (if applicable), VAM, HR, RPE, mood, fatigue, weighted session intensity (various way of doing this), waking HR, pre-sleep HR, body weight, recovery, sleep duration, estimated calorie expenditure/intake etc. May not be all of these, but certainly a lot of them.

Riding on feel, and giving up a power meter if you had one, as I said before, basically says, "I am not serious about training." Which is fine. Not everyone is. But own that choice that you are settling for a lesser path.
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Tapeworm wrote:
However, those who are serious about training log things like:- time, distance, speed (if applicable), VAM, HR, RPE, mood, fatigue, weighted session intensity (various way of doing this), waking HR, pre-sleep HR, body weight, recovery, sleep duration, estimated calorie expenditure/intake etc. May not be all of these, but certainly a lot of them.

Riding on feel, and giving up a power meter if you had one, as I said before, basically says, "I am not serious about training." Which is fine. Not everyone is. But own that choice that you are settling for a lesser path.

I own a power meter. I love it. I download it to Training Peaks all the time. I know more about the data it provides than the racers I know who have them. But I don't race.

One of those "serious people" you speak of texted me one day last week to go for a ride. I was working in the yard and didn't respond in time. I've just met this guy. He was livid that I didn't respond. Lol. I wouldn't have ridden with him anyway. He's all about "training". He's insufferable. Went for dinner with him once. Never again.
I ride because I like to ride. I'm typing this from my phone at a coffee shop 40 miles from home. I will have 85 miles in before the day is out. I had lunch. I talked to some fine people who were curious about where I was riding from and to.
I really don't think I have chosen a "lesser path" for myself. Just don't feel like always doing the gerbil run trying to beat my best time, whatever that is. Today I'm essentially "touring" with no panniers and enjoying my nice road bike. It's fun. And that's why I bike.
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Tapeworm
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by Tapeworm

^ another fallacy, that because the training is serious that you can't enjoy the riding.
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG

by Weenie


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Citizenfox
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by Citizenfox

Tapeworm wrote:^ another fallacy, that because the training is serious that you can't enjoy the riding.


This I totally agree with. I pretty much only ride to "train" and I always have fun, even on a trainer with a PM. I was more interested in a training theory discussion about PMs not a religious discussions about fun vs training.

I've seen programs so complex that they almost back into random, and I've seen people "fall in love with the problem." and get nowhere. I've also seen absolute animals, in multiple sports, that just trained, hard, and had no interest in writing anything down. I've even seen one of those people publish "programs" I know they didn't do.

No PM doesn't mean your not serious, and going out and hammering until you're eyes bleed doesn't mean you're not having fun.

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