Weight Weenies
* FAQ    * Search    * Trending Topics
* Login   * Register
HOME Listings Blog NEW Galleries NEW FAQ Contact About Impressum
It is currently Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:34 pm

All times are UTC+01:00





Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 150 posts ]  Go to page Previous 16 7 8 9 10
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:38 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:02 am
Posts: 3762
Location: On the bike
stormur wrote:
I wonder only how ALL endurance athletes out of cycling train without power meter ??? I mean for example swimmers& runners.

If memory serves well, Chrissie Wellington DID NOT used powermeter.... How she dare to have such stunning results ?? :mrgreen:


Runners have powermeters.

https://www.stryd.com

_________________
"Marginal gains are the only gains when all that's left to gain is in the margins."


Top
   
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:59 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:59 pm
Posts: 104
stormur wrote:

If memory serves well, Chrissie Wellington DID NOT used powermeter.... How she dare to have such stunning results ?? :mrgreen:



Physiological phenom. She could've been even faster with more technical considerations on the bike.

_________________
Cat 1


Top
   
Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:59 pm 


Top
   
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 3:58 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:36 am
Posts: 583
stormur wrote:
exactly, but during lap in pool you have no idea what's your HR nor lap time... just feeling. Same ( almost ) runners, -if- they watch HR monitor, then it's not so frequent as we do looking at cycling computer.. no idea / do they have "cadence" sensor on ..ankle (?) ?


Swimming is a bit of a different one, effort and pace are almost more quantifiable. I did most of my training in a 25m pool, and you learn how long a lap should take. I also knew fairly accurately what effort a certain pace felt like. Cycling is a bit harder to gauge with road quality, wind, other riders to interfere with you perception of pacing. Also all pools have at least one lap clock which is essential for both pacing and time between.

_________________
bike | instagram | strava


Top
   
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:28 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:30 pm
Posts: 5818
Location: Bay Area
I think in the end it honestly comes down to a rider's focus on qualitative over quantitative and how that feeds back into their mental loop. For me, and this is a more personal example:

I deal with large scale data analytics and statistics for a living. Depending on the problem I am dealing with I can simply look at a bunch of points on a scatter plot and almost immediately get an idea of trends or lack thereof. Maybe run a t test or do a few basic tests for correlation, look at within measure variance etc and it's fairly easy to get an idea of what's going on in the big picture. What happens from there is simply a refinement of what I know as an expert of that data. Once myself or any other skilled analyst knows their data inside and out they often do not need to rely on much more than intuition and any models or statistical measures reaffirm what they already know or have observed. You could extrapolate this to power data. It doesn't mean that further analysis won't create more precision, but that additional precision might not change any related decisions.

The riders who don't use a powermeter but train might simply enjoy or find a bit more piece of mind stopping at that level of detail. They might use times on segments and basic summary stats like ride length or weekly hours. They could use heart rate and/or HRV just to get an idea of how their body feels. These riders are also the type who have a lot more mental stress about racing I've noticed. In others they take a more holistic approach to things, but remain focused on the overall picture and sensations. They might not go out and do specific opener intervals the day before a race, but they might still go ride and do something more by how they feel on the day and how they want to feel on the day of the race.

Just for experiment's sake I trained like this one season and we also had a lot of guys on our team that were ex collegiate endurance athletes that are now pro so I kind of figured I would have to ride for them in any race anyways. Put the Garmin underneath my saddle to just collect data and had a friend upload it once a month. Most intervals were done on feel or HR. I was pretty surprised at the end of this period that I could get within 10w of a target on a longer interval and that by using known times on shorter climbs I would be perfectly in specific zones. I also never rode indoors during this time.

There are those that are the opposite and feel that the only validation comes in having power data so you know what you did. That makes sense to, obviously, or we wouldn't be in this thread. I know quite a few people that train with power but have little to no clue what their data reallllly means. They do what is prescribed and send it back to a coach. This was me for a full season and probably when I had my best power throughout the year. At that point though the numbers were sort of ambiguous and more of a pat on the back when I could complete workouts perfectly, but had no clue how the targets were derived or what they meant.

Most riders are going to make 95%+ of their gains in the first few years of dedicated training. Whatever that training may be. Unless something they're doing is way off or they have a glaring weakness that they aren't intuitive enough to diagnose or need to lose a good amount of weight, then what remains is usually in the margin. Most riders also have no clue of what easier riding is until they use something to quantify what they're doing. The first period of working with any device that quantifies training bridges most of this gap be it HR or power, although power is clearly more responsive and often precise. A person can make a lot of gains by doing a smart, well-reasoned program of any sort whether its 2x20s, 5x5s, or whatever and power definitely facilitates that.

But not every rider benefits this much from power. I know that I personally benefitted a lot more from group riding because our rides were pretty hard and on similar terrain to our races and I was able to ride with riders that were much stronger and gained a lot of mental components I couldn't get doing standard intervals. I would often force power targets when I should have used HR and listened to my body. Dan Martin has described something similar with his training, but other than not specifically using power all the time I recall him being very detail oriented and very regimented. So, the riders that might not 100% need power might fall into this camp.

And in some areas of the country local racing and group riding is more than enough. In the Mid-Atlantic you can do at least one group ride every single day- a flat out sprint ride at Hains Point, a gravel ride out in Haymarket, a hill ride in Arlington, the weekly Greenbelt crit series, Wednesday Worlds up near Ellicott City, and of course the 7/10AM rides on the weekend, which have been going for decades and always bring out a large, fast crew. It's not structured, but if a rider has some skills and listens to their body and it's responses, you can hit every single possible physiological pathway and build up the mental side a bit more. And perhaps enjoy it because it is highly social. For some people this is more than enough.

To my point about it changing racing:
My earlier point was that these early gains used to come from people just riding, racing, and group riding. Usually riders then got to a point where they stagnated or got a bit overcooked and made the decision to be a bit more regimented with things. Or they were chasing a category or result goal and wanted to buckle down. A few years ago a powermeter was a big expense and not that common, so it usually was the result of a conscious effort to improve oneself. In 2009-2010 I knew relatively few riders with a PM and I only had a Power Tap because I got it on closeout when I needed a new wheelset.

I would say from then until 2012 less than 1/3 of riders I knew in the Mid-Atlantic used them and even then I recall very few people that were cat 3 or 4 that had one. Many if not most of the successful 1's in the area didn't use one. In 2013 there was a huge jump in usage. That was the year that I also recall a lot more lower grade riders using them and almost every cat 4 I met also had a coach and Zipps. By that point Strava was also fairly mainstream. That was also the year that racing really changed dynamics. The courses and races there almost never, ever change, but the dynamic did. In 2011 and 2012 there were teams that raced using normal tactics. It could be negative if it was one big team and tons of little ones, but it rarely was all that bad. In 2013 it was almost always incredibly negative and there was a huge increase in the number of crashes. There was a massive crash at a race in which a rider I knew caused in the sprint. We were friends and I knew that he had done dozens of sprint workouts. Yet, in the actual race he had no *f##k* clue how to judge distance and blew up 50m before the finish, then deviated his line to try and pull off and swerved into a few others.

He had had a coach since day 1, but didn't know what 200m looked nor how to actually sprint in a race. This is what I was getting at before. You'd see these riders upgrade to cat 2 and then do something a bigger 1/2 crit that might have elite or pros in the field and they would maybe be pack fodder at best, but hadn't learned a lot of skills in terms of cornering, tailgunning, braking, and how to apply smooth power around a highly technical course. These guys were the top 10 upgrades as cat 3s, but couldn't finish a single difficulty p1/2 race. I would estimate 25% still race today based on a quick glance at road results. But, this was also probably do to the USAC upgrade rule changes from needing all points in a single season to having no expiration. And local officials not really enforcing proper point allocation per field size.

Moving to CA I thought that this wouldn't exist, but it is by far worse hence my comments prior in the thread. When I joined a team here in 2015 all but two riders had coaches. Racing was harder here because it was even more negative aside from the 4 or 5 phenoms that are now pros that would ride away in climby races. There was no bike racing in most cases- no dynamic. When I say negative I mean that if a rider were to attack the field, the entire front 10-15 riders would match the attack and counter it. Teammates would bring each other back or bridge over. No one knew how to set a tempo or let a break keep a leash and pull it back. There was definitely no such thing as a leadout. And racing is declining here faster than anywhere in the country according to Road Results registration and retention data. Of the riders I met here when I moved here in 2014, about 10 are still racing. Most people that were on my team in 2015 have quit racing and many had never known a life outside of racing and training and just quit altogether. Quite a few of these people, including myself, had completely forgotten about the qualitative side of racing and riding and couldn't come to terms with not having that extra few percent from training or not following a training routine.

So, it can go many ways depending on personality but having been in quite a few sports that can easily be quantified I see the most burnout when the most analytic precision can be applied.

_________________
Don't take me too seriously. The only person that doesn't hate Froome.
Gramz
Failed Custom Bike


Top
   
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm
Posts: 1611
I raced in Nor Cal 25 years ago. I got burned out after 5 years and so did all my team mates. It seems like a natural progression for road racers. The worst for me was not the training grind but spending all weekend to go do a 30-40 minute crit in Lodi. Even back then interesting road races were going away because of all the usual reasons - permits, locals complaining, hard to organize for little payoff for promoters, etc, etc.

I keep reading that participation is growing in gravel events, grand fondos, and traiathlons. People who would otherwise be pack fodder want events that are experiences worth driving to. They want a day of adventure, good food, beers, and camaraderie that they didn't get driving all day to that 30 minute crit.

_________________
Colnago C59


Top
   
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:43 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:08 am
Posts: 8409
Location: Geelong
KWalker wrote:
To my point about it changing racing:

I would say from then until 2012 less than 1/3 of riders I knew in the Mid-Atlantic used them and even then I recall very few people that were cat 3 or 4 that had one. Many if not most of the successful 1's in the area didn't use one.

Because part time riders have an actual job and can afford one.

KWalker wrote:
To my point about it changing racing:
In 2013 there was a huge jump in usage. That was the year that I also recall a lot more lower grade riders using them and almost every cat 4 I met also had a coach and Zipps. By that point Strava was also fairly mainstream. That was also the year that racing really changed dynamics. The courses and races there almost never, ever change, but the dynamic did. In 2011 and 2012 there were teams that raced using normal tactics. It could be negative if it was one big team and tons of little ones, but it rarely was all that bad. In 2013 it was almost always incredibly negative and there was a huge increase in the number of crashes. There was a massive crash at a race in which a rider I knew caused in the sprint. We were friends and I knew that he had done dozens of sprint workouts. Yet, in the actual race he had no *f##k* clue how to judge distance and blew up 50m before the finish, then deviated his line to try and pull off and swerved into a few others.

Not the problem of having a PM. Just misjudged a sprint.

KWalker wrote:
To my point about it changing racing:
You'd see these riders upgrade to cat 2 and then do something a bigger 1/2 crit that might have elite or pros in the field and they would maybe be pack fodder at best, but hadn't learned a lot of skills in terms of cornering, tailgunning, braking, and how to apply smooth power around a highly technical course.

Cat system at fault, not a PM.

KWalker wrote:
To my point about it changing racing:
Teammates would bring each other back or bridge over. No one knew how to set a tempo or let a break keep a leash and pull it back. There was definitely no such thing as a leadout. And racing is declining here faster than anywhere in the country according to Road Results registration and retention data.

Negatives races happen mate. Not saying you're not experienced. Not saying I know Cali racing. But I do think I'm permitted to say I do know a little about races. And some are just simply shit. Negative. You know within the first half of the race nothing will be let go and it's a bunch finish. Or, like a race I did a few months back, one rider was off the front solo for 100km. One hundred! Two very strong team mates chased down every bridge up attempt. Helped by a peloton that (bizarrely) also shut moves down - all seemingly happy to race for 2nd. After making it clear they would not cooperate to pull the lone rider back, in spite of that team having just spen the summer feeding it to them in every other race. Mind, blown. But. Not the fault of power meters. I could try and make an esoteric case that it was the fault of PMs, but that would simply be clutching at straws.

You're welcome to your opinion on them. Thankfully I cannot see the UCI ever banning them. Nor should they. Shit races happen. Just like shit football games and shit pizza happen as well. Its life. Not the power meter.

_________________
VeloKicks
The Gram
The Men of Steel


Top
   
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 16, 2010 7:28 pm
Posts: 1169
I think complaints about the decline of bike handling has absolutely nothing to do with PM's. This has more to do with the sharp decline of cycling clubs in America where you had old timers passing down techniques to the new comers. Now you have racers going through the ranks without any team attachments and just sort of making it up as they go. The only concession I will make is that it has become more convenient and easier to hire a remote "coach" who reviews power data and prescribes workouts from afar without imparting any knowledge of actual tactics or handling skills.


Top
   
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:59 pm
Posts: 104
KWalker wrote:

I would say from then until 2012 less than 1/3 of riders I knew in the Mid-Atlantic used them and even then I recall very few people that were cat 3 or 4 that had one. Many if not most of the successful 1's in the area didn't use one.


That's weird, because I bought my first used powertap in 2006. Of course not everyone had them, but I wasn't exactly an early adapter and I raced plenty of people (1/2/3) that did. Not like today, but certainly not rare.

KWalker wrote:

You'd see these riders upgrade to cat 2 and then do something a bigger 1/2 crit that might have elite or pros in the field and they would maybe be pack fodder at best, but hadn't learned a lot of skills in terms of cornering, tailgunning, braking, and how to apply smooth power around a highly technical course. These guys were the top 10 upgrades as cat 3s, but couldn't finish a single difficulty p1/2 race.


I still don't see what on earth this has to do with power. That's the nature of upgrading. Almost everyone goes through that. How the hell are you supposed to come out of the threes and start podiuming 1/2 races? It's basically starting back over in the 5s with regards to fitness, skill, and tactics. Very little will be the same for most people.

In fact, you can say the same with 1/2s doing national level races or PRTs. Most of their first attempts they're either packfodder or getting shelled. Again, nature of the game.

It honestly sounds like you have zero experience at the cat 1/2 level. Maybe you do, but your observations and/or recollections certainly suggest you do not.

_________________
Cat 1


Top
   
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:01 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:30 pm
Posts: 5818
Location: Bay Area
TL;DR: Powermeters and often training with power on a highly structured, coached program can feed into a focus on an incomplete set of race skills that are not always the weakness of a particular rider. In addition, some riders might feel a greater need to rely on qualitative metrics, even RPE, as their personal training has shown that it puts them in the best mental and physical state.

Lots of riders come out of the 3s and win or podium local 1/2 races. These are the same riders that are actually worthy of racing PRT races or big races, not just feeling special at the office park on the weekend. I would love to post Strava links to rider pages of guys who wax about watts and even at the cat 1 level completely blow, but unfortunately this is a public forum and it's easy to figure out who I am. That would only add to an anecdote, or dozens of anecdotes. Again, this was different and before the upgrade rules that could let someone take 4 years to become a 2 rather than a season, when it required results. The nature of racing and upgrading dramatically changed when the USAC points rules changed.

Not that everyone should be capable of those results. The analogy and anecdotes were just examples I witnessed at a local level in an area. They could easily not ring true for other areas. Just trying to add a different opinion to those that feel that highly structured programs that use power as a primary metric are the only way to train and race.

People forget that this is an amateur sport people chose to do. Even TP at this point in time. If someone doesn't feel it is worth ruining what they enjoy about the sport then I'd say that is just as strong of an argument not to use one in their case. Others love the data and the process. But it's not a requirement to performing almost any level.

I have raced several races at that level. Opinion still stands. And given the nature of the people posting and this board I don't expect many people to agree with it. After all, the thread is why don't people race or train with them. No one has addressed that part of my response, just my observations and experiences.

And the poster that posted about it not being the sole cause of the decline of racing in the U.S. is right. There isn't much of a sense of community for what is essentially a rich man's junior varsity redux and now, an attempt at being interesting on social media as well.

I'm not arguing that the UCI ban them so I have no idea where that even came from. I have never argued that. Nor do I believe it dictates racing.

_________________
Don't take me too seriously. The only person that doesn't hate Froome.
Gramz
Failed Custom Bike


Top
   
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:20 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:01 am
Posts: 4
I enjoy riding cycling. Just that.


Top
   
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:34 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:56 pm
Posts: 131
I always ride with a power meter. Love the data in WKO4.


Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2016 5:29 am
Posts: 111
kulivontot wrote:
...it has become more convenient and easier to hire a remote "coach" who reviews power data and prescribes workouts from afar without imparting any knowledge of actual tactics or handling skills.
Excellent point. Most "coaches" are trainers, not teachers. Writing a workout isn't coaching. And bumping up your FTP isn't going to teach you how to race a bike.

I like what Tom Danielson is doing in this regard with his Cinch Cycling group - at least as far as what I can gather from his podcasts about it - and I wish I could find something local that did the same. His approach to intervals and using a PM to learn more about your own physiology/limits so you can exploit them while racing (attacking using over/unders for example) makes a lot of sense. And it sounds like he is trying to teach his clients how to ride and race bikes the way you'd see a boxing coach teach their fighter how to dance in the ring (vs. a strength coach just prescribing 3x10 on the bench).


Top
   
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:14 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:59 pm
Posts: 104
Clean39T wrote:
kulivontot wrote:
...it has become more convenient and easier to hire a remote "coach" who reviews power data and prescribes workouts from afar without imparting any knowledge of actual tactics or handling skills.
Excellent point. Most "coaches" are trainers, not teachers. Writing a workout isn't coaching. And bumping up your FTP isn't going to teach you how to race a bike.

I like what Tom Danielson is doing in this regard with his Cinch Cycling group - at least as far as what I can gather from his podcasts about it - and I wish I could find something local that did the same. His approach to intervals and using a PM to learn more about your own physiology/limits so you can exploit them while racing (attacking using over/unders for example) makes a lot of sense. And it sounds like he is trying to teach his clients how to ride and race bikes the way you'd see a boxing coach teach their fighter how to dance in the ring (vs. a strength coach just prescribing 3x10 on the bench).
Tom Danielson is a two time convicted doper and an awful human being.

He's total scum who needs to be run out of cycling forever.

_________________
Cat 1


Top
   
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:16 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:59 pm
Posts: 104
KWalker wrote:
Lots of riders come out of the 3s and win or podium local 1/2 races. These are the same riders that are actually worthy of racing PRT races or big races, not just feeling special at the office park on the weekend.
No, lots of riders certainly do not.

_________________
Cat 1


Top
   
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:38 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:10 am
Posts: 329
53x12 wrote:
Those of you that don't train with a pm, may I ask why? Is it that you don't believe it will help? Do you think they are too expensive (lots of affordable options available now)? Some other reason. Just curious to hear why some don't train with power.
Same reason I never used a heart rate monitor. A speedometer and stopwatch are all I need cuz they tell me how fast I'm going and how long it took. I don't need to know how hard I'm working cuz my body will tell me. I miss the old days when it was a skill to know your body and pace correctly.

Also, too heavy. This is weight weenies.


Top
   
Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:38 pm 


Top
   
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 150 posts ]  Go to page Previous 16 7 8 9 10

   Similar Topics   Author   Replies   Views   Last post 
There are no new unread posts for this topic. Lil help w/ old SRAM (Red?) power meter?

in Road

Kidtreo

4

460

Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:34 pm

sungod View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. Shimano Power Meter

in Road

cunn1n9

1

592

Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:48 pm

cycleboyco View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. First Power meter suggestions

[ Go to page: 13 4 5 6 7 ]

in Road

merser

91

8166

Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:38 pm

evan326 View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. Power meter lifespan

in Road

stormur

7

1064

Sun Aug 20, 2017 2:55 pm

RyanH View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. Power Meter For Campagnolo

[ Go to page: 1 2 3 4 ]

in Road

lw11

46

5709

Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:34 pm

Mockenrue View the latest post


All times are UTC+01:00


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: chunky666, Yahoo [Bot] and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited