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 Post subject: Help me get 1 hour 40k.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:42 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:30 pm
Posts: 325
Background
After 2 years of serious road biking, I don't know what I really train for. I don't target race. So I want to make an ambitious goal to keep me motivated. 1 hour 40k sounds like a good challenge and I know at my current fitness/ aerobic level I am nowhere near that so I need your help.

Current fitness
Alright, but not great. Can stick with fast group ride, but might get dropped on long hill (i'm a poor climber). Can hold 34-35 kph for an hour alone on flat, faster if there's a tailwind. I am good at pacing myself and familiar with my threshold level.

Equipment
Ridley Fenix Road Bike, 105 groupset, Shimano R500 wheels. The bike has good fit and I am comfortable on all position on the bike. Gearing is 52-36 + 11-25.

I will be wearing the S-Works Evade helmet, shoes cover and skinsuit. I train with RPE and HR monitor I don't have powermeter and cannot afford one. The wheels are not good, but I also want to see how well I can do with these wheels. Can borrow deeper wheels if needed be.

Realistically how much time I can save with let's say a pair of Zipp 404?

Route
A smooth road near the airport. Pan flat. Strong headwind on way out, strong tailwind on way back. Fairly balanced course. Light traffic.

Training
This is where I need help. My current training (before targeting this challenge) looks like this;

Mon: Rest day
Tue: Zone 2 endurance 90 minutes
Wed: Short Z5 interval works
Thurs: 2x15 (trying to get to 20 mins)
Fri: Rest day
Sat: Spirited group ride. 3-4 hours.
Sun: Not specific. Depending on work.

I live in Thailand so I can basically train all year long outdoor. I have no idea how to train for this goal. More threshold work? I also do body weight workout regularly. Push up, planks, dips, pull ups etc.

Due to work restriction, I have approximately 10-15 hours a week for training. Can stretch it a bit on weekend. Ideally I want to get close to the goal during September-October. I know 40 mins is hard, so if I can get to 37-38 mins I will be super happy.

Any help is kindly appreciated.
Thanks!


Last edited by ichobi on Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Help me get 1 hour 40k.
Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:42 pm 


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:11 pm 
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Posts: 337
Your age?
Your weight?
Your size (height, inseam)?
Your bike size (crank length, stem length)?

I find getting more aero is a great way to drop some precious seconds. That means the Evade is a good start and 404's are even better!

My best recorded KM40 was in a tri relay where I did 1:02 at a 24 mph average (90° day and windy).

That means you need to cary a minimum of 24.9mph average for an hour which is where the Zipp 404's will help.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:47 pm 
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Forgot all those.
Age 28, Height 5'5". Crank length 170mm. Weight 63kg.
Frame Stack and Reach 532 / 372mm.
Bar reach 506mm. / Current stem is -6 x110 degree, Setback zero.

I did a Retul fitting, the fitter suggests I get 120mm stem, drop one spacer, and get a 25mm setback post as I am riding smaller frame than my normal size. (Frame is size XS). Need to get around this soon, as the fitting was months ago and I can now ride lower comfortably. With current set up the position is too upright. My most comfortable position (which I can hold speed and decent power for long duration) is my forearm on the bar together just like on TT bike, but I won't use aerobar for this challenge.) I like this position better than on drop.

I had about 1300km base in z2 bagged from last December while doing Rapha Festive challenge and other long cycling trips.


Last edited by ichobi on Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:01 pm 
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I'll add that I also used regular road bars but TT bars do work.

Yes, slam that stem, get longer on the stem if you are comfortable but I wouldn't go all in and go from a 110-120 AND from a 0 to a 25mm set back all at once. Start with stack height, then go into the stem followed by 25mm set back (or slide the saddle back as far as you can first).

The 404's are no joke, just like aero bars. Saving on rotational mass while increasing aerodynamics is certainly the step in the right direction without changing the fit.

Sounds like you are on the right path.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 9:56 am 
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in order of most aero savings, from highest to lowest: 1) TT bars 2) good position 3) aero helmet 4) skinsuit 5) shoe covers ( it depends. some work, some don't) 6) wheels 7) frame.

do 1,2,3,4,5 before 6 and 7.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:55 am 
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If you can borrow the wheels any possibility of borrowing a tt bike that fits you> Keep in mind if you can't get some training time on it and be 10% comfortable there will be no benefit.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:02 pm 
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I want to do this on a road bike with no aerobar. I will get a deep carbon hoops though.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:26 pm 
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I personnally would go this route:
-Buy a powermeter, even used. A wired SRM, or a used Powertap ANT+ is less than a cheap set of carbon wheels.
-Hire a competent coach
-Follow the plan.
Lots of people can do a below 60min 40K at less than 250 watts FTP (usually they use TT bikes though).
I suspect you would have to work at improving specific energy systems to achieve your goal, but also specific position to reduce drag as much as possible, and maybe not as comfy as a "traditionnal fit". Most people have more power with a more upright position, but if less aero, that would end on a slower time in a Time Trial.
That might be a fun goal to try to achieve actually. Just fiddling with your position, bringing out numbers, trying different opitons, like stem angles, bars, and see what it does to your performance, is all the work. Of course some other stuff, like pedaling efficiency, economy, etc., are also part of the plan.
Tell us how it goes from here :D...

Louis :)


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:44 pm 
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60 min 40k is the clubmans benchmark in the uk. (Ok, technically it's a 25 mile time trial. So it'd be nearer 62 minutes for your 40k)

Just getting a basic training plan and riding smart should see you break it fairly easily. There should be no need for a powermeter for something like this. If you were aiming for sub 50 minutes, yes, get one!

And 10-15 hours training a week is the stuff of dreams to many.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:21 pm 
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Location: Geneva, Switzerland
mattr wrote:
60 min 40k is the clubmans benchmark in the uk. (Ok, technically it's a 25 mile time trial. So it'd be nearer 62 minutes for your 40k)

Just getting a basic training plan and riding smart should see you break it fairly easily.


Do you think most people (or even 50%) in UK cycling clubs could do this, 60 min 40k without aerobars ? I know you din't say that was the case, I'm curious as to what you think.

Also, I know this varies, but what approximate FTP is required to do this on a flat circuit without a TT bike ?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:05 pm 
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Without clip ons, I'd say about 4-4.25w/kg or in my case about 280+ watts.

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 Post subject: Help me get 1 hour 40k.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:58 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:30 pm
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280 Watts for an hour... i will keep trying. Thanks for all your input!


Last edited by ichobi on Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 7:53 pm 
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indigo wrote:
Do you think most people (or even 50%) in UK cycling clubs could do this, 60 min 40k without aerobars ? I know you din't say that was the case, I'm curious as to what you think.
I would *suspect* that a good half of the senior racing members of any Road club would be disappointed to not be within striking distance or under the hour for a 25 mile tt. Especially with that much training time available. And on a flat course.

FWIW I hate time trialling with a passion, and have even answered my mobile whilst racing (anything to break the boredom) and haven't actually gone slower than an hour over 25 miles (as a racer) and even when 20 kilos overweight and massively unfit can still get within 3 minutes of the hour. (All on a Road bike)


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:18 pm 
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The following regime got someone I know well to consistent top-10s in the UK's national 25mile (c.40km) TT competition.

15min WU
20min @ threshold
5min rest
20min @ threshold
10 min WD

He did this twice a week on the turbo then a 3hr brisk ride at the weekend.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:30 am 
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mattr wrote:
indigo wrote:
Do you think most people (or even 50%) in UK cycling clubs could do this, 60 min 40k without aerobars ? I know you din't say that was the case, I'm curious as to what you think.
I would *suspect* that a good half of the senior racing members of any Road club would be disappointed to not be within striking distance or under the hour for a 25 mile tt. Especially with that much training time available. And on a flat course.

FWIW I hate time trialling with a passion, and have even answered my mobile whilst racing (anything to break the boredom) and haven't actually gone slower than an hour over 25 miles (as a racer) and even when 20 kilos overweight and massively unfit can still get within 3 minutes of the hour. (All on a Road bike)


I'd disagree, 60min is the benchmark, but its for TT rigs not road bikes. Whereas some clubs definitely would do better than others, i think nationally a relatively small percentage will be able to do this. I'd say its the benchmark point at which people consider themselves "decent" or "good" cyclists. But realistically I'd expect any UK 2nd cat or above to be able to do a 60 min 25 on road racing equipment. We do need more roadies TTs back again.

Time trialling is all about connection with your body and being present with the pain. :) I've been down to 22min 10milers and 56 25s on 8 hours a week training on road bike. But every minute must be quality training at that level. No room for junk miles!

As previously stated 20min threshold intervals are very good, but so are long sweet spot sessions (80-85% ftp) for upto 1hour at a time. Shorter above threshold intervals like 3 or 5mins are great but not as beneficial for an hour of pain.

This is alledgedly a generic template of what matt botrill (2nd to alex dowsett in the national TT) does for his training, looks like a good base

Monday - 2hrs Level 2

Tuesday - 15 mins L2, 1hr sweetspot, 15 mins recovery

Wednesday - Rest

Thursday - 20 mins warm up, 4 x 4 minute level 5 intervals

Friday - 15 mins L2, 1hr sweetspot, 15 mins recovery

Saturday - Race

Sunday - 90mins Level 1-2 recovery ride.


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Posted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:30 am 


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