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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:21 am 
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Bgoetz wrote:
Building base is mostly accomplished by doing high volumes at an aerobic/endurance type effort, the key being as much volume as your time allows without the need for significant recovery between workouts. Consistency that a diet of harder efforts may disrupt. The benifit is change in metobolic processing (your body stores and processes glycogen more efficiently, your body learns to process calories while riding, etc.). Additionally, the significant volume of aerobic work makes your aerobic system significantly more efficient (many aspects of your cardio system become better like the stroke rate of your heart).


So, is a 20min effort at TT pace aerobic or not. What about a 5min efforts? What about studies that show that metabolic efficiency adaptations occurring at high intensities (HIT) ? How does lots of Long Slow Distance work help cardiac output when that sort of effort range works more cardiac eccentric hypertrophy and very little concentric hypertrophy?

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Some may say you won't be able to complete the efforts as effectively (i.e your general fitness won't allow you to get the same quality workout as if you had done a block or two of base). Others would say you risk injury because your body has not been properly prepared. I personally agree with all of this, but my big thing is that I feel there are much better ways to spend your time training in the off-season. Your AWC and VO2 can be fully developed in a matter of 6-8 weeks, why write these "checks" from your training account before hand when it can be better spend developing your FTP, which takes much more time to develop. Now I am not saying AWC and VO2 won't improve your FTP, I just don't think it is the most effective way to do it.


So "base" is fitness, and the rest is really all speculation and conjecture with no science behind it? Got it.

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"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:40 am 
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I am not trying to debate with anyone, I am just telling you how I, along with many other accomplished cyclists do things. Listen to me, don't listen to me, it does not matter to me either way. I am very confident in how I train, I have been around the block a couple times and have a very good handle on what works for me. If you read the last sentence of my last post I did acknowledge that a diet of VO2 would likely "pull" your FTP up, it is just not the best way to do it. There are many coaches, many papers, and many cyclists who support my perspective, I am not going to spend time recapping it all for you when you can search on your own. It sorta seems to me you don't care to listen anyway.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:20 am 
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^ and I am very grateful that there are so, so many who follow similar advice. Nothing like conforming to tradition.

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"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:31 am 
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Well I guess we should look for you on TV beating up on the TDF GC list in July then right :lol: ?


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:37 am 
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in one of your post, you talk about 2x20 and such work intensity, is that what you refer to when speaking of your training phylosophy which is backed up by tons of peoples and papers?

If so, backed up by peoples maybe, papers, I doubt.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:48 am 
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Devinci, there are lots of articles and published papers written on SST type training programs. Some of the best known coaches in the world use some variation of SST. My program is a bit more complicated than day after day of 2x20s, but they are a major part of what I do. If I were told I could only do 1 type of workout to become a great cyclist it would be 2x20s, no questions asked.

Don't misinterpret what I am saying to mean I don't think highly of VO2 and AWC work, that could not be further from the truth, there is just a place and time, 3 months before the season starts is not that time. Unless of course you are training as a track cyclist for a specific event like the Kilo or 400.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:51 am 
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Please share those papers. I am not aware of much published scientific evidence regarding SST. Sure, there are a ton of coaches articles, but I won't rely on these sometimes dodgy articles for evidence...

AWC is one thing, vo2max is another. Short hard efforts are a potent stimulus to induce aerobic adaptations, both central and peripheal.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 2:07 am 
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Don't think of SST as a "thing" like VO2 or AWC. SST is more of a way to utilize your training time to get the most quality work to recovery. I am just giving my perspective on the OPs question I have no need to expend any time whatsoever defending it....


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 2:38 am 
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I know what SST is. Still, people who claim they train in the sweet-spot rarely seem to mean they traing at high intensities.

I am not asking you defend anything, just share those published papers, as I am interested reading those. A thing people should be warry of is spreading misleading opinions regarding some training regimes being the best versus others. There is no one size fits all. What may be good for you may be innefficient for someone else. What may be good for you this year may not be next year. Training is a whole lot more complexe then saying training with 2x20 would be the only workout you'd choose if you could pick one.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 2:57 am 
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Oh I agree 100%, I am just providing my opinion and made that really clear. Notice I said if I HAD to pick just 1 it would be 2x20 and I will stand by that. I don't even follow a strict SST type plan, during a portion of the season it is the backbone of what I do, but that is it. My main point was about how there were better ways for a working racer to train than Tabattas

Just read articles written by Coggan, Hunter, Overton. SST plays a big part in what they prescribe to their athletes.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 3:49 am 
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dvincere wrote:
...Does modern research say it's a bad idea?


Short answer, no. Nothing wrong with some sprints year around.

Just be aware that without 3months of aerobic base your legs might be torn off at the hip when you try anything resembling a hard effort.

_________________
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:56 am 
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Tapeworm, I think you should go back and re-read my posts. I think your eyes instantly went to the fact that I am a new member and have very few posts, from that point on you only had the ability to find fault in what I posted.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:02 am 
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No, nothing to do with the number of post you have. Just that some of things posted are flat-out wrong.

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"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:11 am 
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Tapeworm, I understand some of your arguments, but can I ask what do your preparatory cycles look like before you get into race season?


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:40 am 
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Well *my* training is largely irrelevant 1) because in the land of Oz we can effectively ride and race all year round. There is no off-season, and hence no real prep and 2) because with 3 kids (1 newborn), long work hours and a secondary business I average about 1 hr of training a day. Though I could wax lyrical about how its been working for me, demonstrable improvements etc, personal anecdotes are meaningless, *my* training is neither optimal nor recommended.

However there are key principals which can be observed. The first being that "base" is a misconstrued concept that realistically does not exist, and therefore "base training" has been taken to mean LSD over the winter months as some sort of necessary prep for everyone prior to racing.

European pros who used to take a winter sabbatical back in the day used to do "base training" to ease back into racing. There is also some wacky ideas that somehow doing any sort of intensity (a grossly broad term) too soon means injury, or burnout or some other nonsense.

(I personally love terms like "burnout", usually it's a great excuse for people to hang up the hoops and get fat. Properly constructed training plans avoid this and factor recovery at all times. A mental brake from racing does not necessitate the loss of fitness.)

So what is "base"? There doesn't seem to be any clearly defined physiological state of "base" beyond "good aerobic fitness". If that's the case then one could say FTP is your base. Then, is something that improves FTP working base? If that's the case then the door is kind of open on what contributes to that. Adaptations from working other things like Vo2max may have a limited duration in which they may take place but there is nothing to suggest that this cannot be revisited multiple times throughout a year of training.

So what do I recommend then for training? Broadly, periodised and balanced training throughout the year. No zones should be totally ignored and volumes of the zones determined by the macrocycle of the time with an overall view to the demands of the racing to be undertaken. This will be highly specific to each individual.

Sprinting throughout the year will not cause any issues and may just help...if correctly balanced with appropriate recovery and training load.

Some fun things to google are "high intensity training", "metabolic adaptations", "polarised training", "lactate threshold" and the associated studies around those. Happy reading.

_________________
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG


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