Results from following your suggestions and a request....

A light bike doesn't replace good fitness.

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Tapeworm
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Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 10:39 am

by Tapeworm

Martin.F wrote:...Your powerprofile does indeed point towards a TT man, but don't feel limited by this!


+1. Unless you're collecting a pay cheque race that which you enjoy.

But FWIW your sprint power is more than sufficient to win a bunch sprint... if you can do it at the end of 2-3-4hrs. ;)

Exactly what are the types of race(s) you are training for?

I don't disagree with Martin's suggestions for training, I would only add two things which are interlinked.

1) have a periodic "decompression" inserted into the program. This does not have to be a week, every 3 weeks etc, it is entirely dependent on load, sometimes that may be 10 hard days of load and 4 easy days, or maybe 20 days of load and then 6 etc.

2) some form of testing to validate and help track training. Your weekend cross races may do this, but a more "clinical" form of testing will help guide as to whether a) you are progressing and b) if not progressing what is the limiter? (lack of stimulus, lack of recovery etc).
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG

by Weenie


welkman
Posts: 188
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:47 am

by welkman

Thanks Guys,

I was going to ask for some reccomendations for a plan so this is spot on. I have searched the archives but find little in the way of daily plans. What would you do for your typical 'long ride' in the different periods? Also I will test FTP again in a week or two because I had to move my intervals up to 360-365w recently (2x20) and feel I have gained a bit on my last test about two months ago. I am also thinking of going back to 1 on 1 off type training as I felt better when doing this kind of schedule. I am using training peaks but have neglected to upload for two weeks so I will let you know my TSS etc. tonight.

Thanks for the constant help in my quest for a Cat 2 ticket.

Stoo
Posts: 327
Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 9:22 am
Location: Warwick, UK

by Stoo

60-70 mind ftp...

Is that 2x20 in there?

I'm so damn confused with training plans.

I have 2xPT's. One to train one to race.

Tested my ftp last week and had 304w over 20 mins.

So set my FTP at 288.

So, for the winter, wtf do I do with that.

I'm a new CAT3 crit racer with a fairly good sprint. 29, 5'11" 76kg

Aiming to get to
350ftp and sub 72 kg.

How!?!? Lol
'18 Giant Trinity Pro TT - DA9070 - Rotor 3D+ P2Max - Zipp 900T/HED Jet 9+
'18 Giant TCR Advanced Pro 1 - R8000 - QuarQ DZero - SLR1
'16 Genesis Equilibrium - U6800 - FSA SRM - WH6800
'13 Giant Trinity Composite - U6800 - QuarQ DZero

olebole
Posts: 133
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:42 pm

by olebole

Tapeworm wrote:
1) have a periodic "decompression" inserted into the program. This does not have to be a week, every 3 weeks etc, it is entirely dependent on load, sometimes that may be 10 hard days of load and 4 easy days, or maybe 20 days of load and then 6 etc.


I have kind of the same goals so I hope its okay if I add a question in this thread.
How about using "two-a-days" as some kind of periodization? With a 5 month baby at home I dont often get the chance to do a lot of long sessions. But for example, I can get one trainer session before breakfast and one later in the evening.
Thinking about throwing in 2-3 days like this per week, perhaps every 3-6wks/when I feel I've got the energy.
A couple of easy days after that and then back to the usual 2-3 threshold/v02max sessions plus one longer group ride per week.

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Tapeworm
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by Tapeworm

welkman wrote:What would you do for your typical 'long ride' in the different periods?


I'll qualify it with a "it depends". For a long ride 3hrs+ I normal program a Z2 (56-75% FTP) ride. If there are particular race goals these may be inserted during the ride - like some hill efforts Z/5, or if reasonably fresh - some sprint drills etcetc. Whilst these long are "boring" there are plenty of skills that can still be improved - cornering, body position, breathing, nutrition (frequency and types of food and drink) etc.


Also I will test FTP again in a week or two because I had to move my intervals up to 360-365w recently (2x20) and feel I have gained a bit on my last test about two months ago.


I personally like the 20min test but that's because TTs are a focus. The focus of the testing is to help guide the training and ensure its efficacy. This means the testing should reflect or be a good proxy for the racing goals.

I am also thinking of going back to 1 on 1 off type training as I felt better when doing this kind of schedule. I am using training peaks but have neglected to upload for two weeks so I will let you know my TSS etc. tonight.


When you say 1 day on/off do you mean relative intensity for the on/off or training one day then having a complete day off? The former is tricky to balance but works well if keep to keep the intensity really high on the ON day and keeping it really easy on the OFF day, but it is easy to slip a little and then the ON days aren't that hard and the easy days aren't that easy and will just serve to cook you. For the latter of having a full day off this can work but the hard days do need to be really hard. That being said I would advise not making every ON a torture-fest.
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG

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Tapeworm
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by Tapeworm

olebole wrote:I have kind of the same goals so I hope its okay if I add a question in this thread.
How about using "two-a-days" as some kind of periodization? With a 5 month baby at home I dont often get the chance to do a lot of long sessions. But for example, I can get one trainer session before breakfast and one later in the evening.
Thinking about throwing in 2-3 days like this per week, perhaps every 3-6wks/when I feel I've got the energy.
A couple of easy days after that and then back to the usual 2-3 threshold/v02max sessions plus one longer group ride per week.


I know that feel. I have a newborn and two under 5yrs at the moment, training time has to be managed carefully!

Two a days can be very useful indeed. The volume can be amassed a lot more easy than having to bail on the family for hours on end. Personally I like to alternate the intensity on two-a-day. If you have a bub, then it's a question of when you're feeling the best to target the "hard training". For example, I usually feel best in the afternoon, so that's when I'll hit the hard stuff. Mornings I generally feel mildly truck-hit so that's when I try to get in the volume.

Monitor your training load carefully though. Sometimes, especially if sleep deprived, the two-a-days can catch up with you rapidly, ensure you balance it well with sufficient rest and recovery during the week.

Another bit of general advice is "Alls you can do is alls you can do." Sometimes that might be a 5:00am spin for 30mins, it may not be optimal but its better than nothing. With a young family you just to work around things as best you can.
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG

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Martin.F
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by Martin.F

Tapeworm wrote:
welkman wrote:What would you do for your typical 'long ride' in the different periods?


I'll qualify it with a "it depends". For a long ride 3hrs+ I normal program a Z2 (56-75% FTP) ride. If there are particular race goals these may be inserted during the ride - like some hill efforts Z/5, or if reasonably fresh - some sprint drills etcetc. Whilst these long are "boring" there are plenty of skills that can still be improved - cornering, body position, breathing, nutrition (frequency and types of food and drink) etc.


I completely agree. I see way too many people just washing around doing nothing on their Z2 rides. If you are going to spend 4-5-6 hours in the saddle, you'd better make it worth it. I like to add high-cadence drills (less than SSTwatts, but >110 rpm), plus some other drills, breathing, cornering, relaxed upper body focus especially during climbs, time in the drops etc etc. No need to do that long training rides with no other goal than to do that long a training.
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CulBaire
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by CulBaire

Martin.F wrote: I completely agree. I see way too many people just washing around doing nothing on their Z2 rides. If you are going to spend 4-5-6 hours in the saddle, you'd better make it worth it. I like to add high-cadence drills (less than SSTwatts, but >110 rpm), plus some other drills, breathing, cornering, relaxed upper body focus especially during climbs, time in the drops etc etc. No need to do that long training rides with no other goal than to do that long a training.


This!!!... I like alot have a 3yo and also one on the way so getting hours in isn't always easy. Lately I've been trying to go out and do every ride with some purpose as opposed to just riding around with the bunch and doing a mixture of intervals here and there. Sometimes I fall short but you can only do what you can do with the time you've got.

On longer rides mix it up, pedal drills, big gear wind ups, ILT's - you could also do the last hour of your 3 or 4 hour ride at tempo (ouch).

welkman
Posts: 188
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:47 am

by welkman

Well this has sorted a few things for me!

I think I have been going a bit to hard as I am ill again (virus cold) and have had to have two days off the bike missing a cross race :cry: but I have restored an old mtb frame and built a wheel :beerchug:

My longer weekend rides have been sst and 4*12mins at 105-110% ftp with a few hard hills and sprints mixed in for about 3 hours, I will now change this to ride with a local group for 3/4 hours and hard hill efforts seated (riding fixed on my langster).

I am targeting 100tss/day as I can for my training but seem to end up slightly under some weeks.

My week used to be one on one off i.e.

Mon: sst + 2*20 FTP 1 1/2 h
Tues:1hour <150w
Weds: VO2 Max training 6*2min + 6 min at 450w target (1 1/2 h)
Thu: <150w 1 hour
Fri: Race winning intervals or race tune up at 1 1/2 hours
Sat: Cross race 1 hour or rr 3 hours
Sun Long ride as described but sometimes dropped if shagged out!

I think I will follow the plan Martin.F has for this winter and see how it goes.

For testing I do the cogan 20 min test with the 5 min blow out before hand, I think this over estimates my hour ftp by 5-10 watts realistically.

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Tapeworm
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by Tapeworm

^ again, I would suggest that the only issue with the above is that there is possibly not enough rest. Maybe every second week sub one of the 1hr easy spins for a full and complete day of rest. Or even two. With the level of intensity there extra day or two of rest won't hurt and would probably help, a lot.
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG

welkman
Posts: 188
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:47 am

by welkman

Ok thanks guy advice taken on board. Will be starting Base December, Build Jan - Feb, high intensity March and then into competition with some periodisation. Will let you guys know how it goes and report back for more advice in March. Now to build up those wheels for the fixie, sort out the cross bike, build up my replacment cervelo frame and do something with my two vintage MTB's :D

Stoo
Posts: 327
Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 9:22 am
Location: Warwick, UK

by Stoo

Stoo wrote:60-70 mins ftp...

Is that 2x20 in there?

I'm so damn confused with training plans.

I have 2xPT's. One to train one to race.

Tested my ftp last week and had 304w over 20 mins.

So set my FTP at 288.

So, for the winter, wtf do I do with that.

I'm a new CAT3 crit racer with a fairly good sprint. 29, 5'11" 76kg

Aiming to get to
350ftp and sub 72 kg.

How!?!? Lol


Could someone reply please.
When you say 60-70 mins FTP, I assume you're not doing a solid 6-70mins @ FTP, rather 2 x20mins?

As I've said, Ive got my PT's, done an FTP test and want to start training with power properly now.
2 sets of pyramids probably to peak in march/april time

TIA :)
'18 Giant Trinity Pro TT - DA9070 - Rotor 3D+ P2Max - Zipp 900T/HED Jet 9+
'18 Giant TCR Advanced Pro 1 - R8000 - QuarQ DZero - SLR1
'16 Genesis Equilibrium - U6800 - FSA SRM - WH6800
'13 Giant Trinity Composite - U6800 - QuarQ DZero

Stoo
Posts: 327
Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 9:22 am
Location: Warwick, UK

by Stoo

Anybody...
'18 Giant Trinity Pro TT - DA9070 - Rotor 3D+ P2Max - Zipp 900T/HED Jet 9+
'18 Giant TCR Advanced Pro 1 - R8000 - QuarQ DZero - SLR1
'16 Genesis Equilibrium - U6800 - FSA SRM - WH6800
'13 Giant Trinity Composite - U6800 - QuarQ DZero

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devinci
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Location: Canada

by devinci

there is plenty of material in the forum's archives to learn quite a bit about power training. The forum is not an ask and get what you want on command.

To prescribe or suggest any training, we need details about the rider, experience, goal events, training history, etc.

Stoo
Posts: 327
Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 9:22 am
Location: Warwick, UK

by Stoo

The details are a couple of posts above.

29, 76KG, current FTP 290W ish
Aiming to drop to 70-72KG and up FTP to 350W if possible.

Cat 3 racer, mainly Crits, would have moved up to become Cat 2 late in the season if it wasn't for a bad crash. Started racing midway through the '13 season. Started riding in Jan '13.

I am COMPLETELY new to training with power, so please forgive me for asking for clarification.
I've been training/racing on feel so far, riding for just under 1 year, so would like a little more detail on how to apply the figures I have from my shiny PM's.

I can read and read and read, but if I still don't understand, I'll ask.
It's my understanding that this is the primary function of a forum? To ask and share information.

Thanks.
'18 Giant Trinity Pro TT - DA9070 - Rotor 3D+ P2Max - Zipp 900T/HED Jet 9+
'18 Giant TCR Advanced Pro 1 - R8000 - QuarQ DZero - SLR1
'16 Genesis Equilibrium - U6800 - FSA SRM - WH6800
'13 Giant Trinity Composite - U6800 - QuarQ DZero

by Weenie


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