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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:35 am 
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@KWalker, random but are your FTP numbers based of 20 min efforts? Just trying to determine if people are using 20 min or 1 hr FTP numbers.

Don't want to derail, just a quick side note. Good thread though. Very informative for a first season racer like myself.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:32 am 
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Mine were 20mins but after a trip to Italy with the wrong gearing I have tested it over the hour. My race craft is lacking a bit and also I struggle to launch really fast attacks on climbs. Around here almost all the races have a 1-2 min sharp kick to the finish which is why I am trying to improve my weight. I will post back later to let you know what I ate today and a bit more about background. I asked at my club last night but everyone seems to be of the just go out and put in 300miles a week attitude :(


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Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:32 am 


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:27 am 
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W/kg on those sort of climbs is effectively meaningless. What is more important is your ability to power up them and then recover.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:17 pm 
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I have a convoluted way of figuring out my FTP when I can't do an all-out 40-60min climb or effort. I've done A LOT of tests too so its pretty consistent.
I do a very short warm-up akin to a TT and basically do an all out 20min, spin for 10min, then another all out 20min. I've found the average of the two to be within 1% of what I've then done in longer efforts. Part way through the season I drop the 2nd 20 and end up using 92% of my best 20min. I have a very high 10min power so my 20min is definitely not as aerobic as is ideal, but what I find is that earlier in the season this affects my FTP figure a lot more than when I've developed a decent base. The convoluted warm up in the Coggan/Allan book did nothing for me and didn't alter my numbers.

I also have been training with a PM for 3 years and I know by now what threshold feels like. I can get within 5-7watts of my FTP just by guesstimating from a workout with longer intervals as well. When in doubt, I always round down.

I've also replicated my FTP on some longer climbs and in many real-world situations.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:19 pm 
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euan wrote:
W/kg on those sort of climbs is effectively meaningless. What is more important is your ability to power up them and then recover.

And to come into them fresher with a much more full tank, FRC, whatever you want to call it. Cycling is an aerobic sport- it underpins everything you do. Most riders want to go out and do all of these complex top end workouts immediately to see these massive improvements, which they sometimes yield, but its not necessary especially if you are not super time constrained. I don't know many new riders that couldn't stand to do more aerobic riding if they have the time. Sure it shouldn't be all you do, but it plays an important part of the equation.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:32 pm 
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Yeah, I was a bit short there and didn't really explain what I meant there. Basically my message is stop worrying about weight and keep training your power. Rest and eat more.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:43 pm 
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Had a good look at my diet. I seem to be eating 85% of my daily calories in the 3 hours before I go to bed. This is caused by monitoring my food intake online and then saving calories for a binge at the end of the day, a large meal followed by loads of fruit or toast. This has happened totally subconsciously and has been going on for the past 3 years I think. Today I went for a bit of a mix up with more protien at breakfast and a 600 kcal shake at lunch but I am still a bit lost. Could someone post an example of a day where you need to eat 3300 Kcal (a typical hard work out day with a commute) ? I think that if I sort out the timings/type of foods I will drop weight. I also rely on shakes a bit too much as I am rushed in the mornings.

Cheers

James


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:25 pm 
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You did not have that good of a look- 3300 is not near enough for a hard workout day- unless the workout was 1.5 hours or less.
But for the sake of argument- if it was 3300 calories. You would need at least 500 grams of carbs.
200 of those grams would be well applied as pre and post-workout. At least 60 grams/hour of carbs during training.
I do best by getting in most of my carbs before dinner.
I eat breakfast- train- eat some more.
What is in the shake that you eat? It might be good- might be garbage.
You also state that you eat a ton of fruit. Though fruit has vitamins, it is also basically sugar. Lots of fructose. Fructose can be an issue with weight and also gut problems.
I strongly suggest you get a rice cooker and keep a container of brown rice ready to eat in the refrigerator, this helps make fueling easier.
85% of calories in last 3 hours before bed? I try to finish eating at least 3 hours before bed. Helps the digestion.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:31 am 
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The calories before bed thing harks back to weight watchers days where I was not exercising and I would save up my calories during the day so I could eat junk in the evening (chocolate crisps etc). My Shakes are just 200 kcal worth of whey protein, some BCAA and L Glutamine as standard with water, midday I add 400 Kcal of ground oats to the mix. So basically breakfast is about 80g of Porridge oats/skimmed milk and a coffee, now with shake; snack is a couple of bananas; lunch is the oaty shake; snack is again a couple of bananas; ride fuelled by 300kcal/hour mixed maltodextrin/fructose drink/gel; post ride shake and toast (sometimes I miss the shake) dinner is normally pasta or rice (75g) with chicken, beef, fish; snack would be maybe a < 200kcal chocolate bar. Alcohol is a bit of a friday issue, often half a bottle of wine or several gins get drunk but I am working on cutting back.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:25 pm 
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boots2000 wrote:
You did not have that good of a look- 3300 is not near enough for a hard workout day- unless the workout was 1.5 hours or less.
But for the sake of argument- if it was 3300 calories. You would need at least 500 grams of carbs.
200 of those grams would be well applied as pre and post-workout. At least 60 grams/hour of carbs during training.
I do best by getting in most of my carbs before dinner.
I eat breakfast- train- eat some more.
What is in the shake that you eat? It might be good- might be garbage.
You also state that you eat a ton of fruit. Though fruit has vitamins, it is also basically sugar. Lots of fructose. Fructose can be an issue with weight and also gut problems.
I strongly suggest you get a rice cooker and keep a container of brown rice ready to eat in the refrigerator, this helps make fueling easier.
85% of calories in last 3 hours before bed? I try to finish eating at least 3 hours before bed. Helps the digestion.

I disagree with this and here is why:

Replenishment rates are pretty limited. On average to around 50g/CHO/2 hrs. Slamming in 500 grams of carbs in a day won't change this and can contribute to way more fat spillover than is ideal. I know World Tour riders that hit around that on a 4 hour training day and that is also factoring in that they take in around 80-100g/hr on the bike.

It can take a while to replenish from truly draining rides, which is where periodizing your week comes in. Sure you can get through a tough 3 day block with tons of intensity, but by the end you will be fully depleted and take a bit longer to bounce back. This is why I never understood why some coaches jam the middle of the week with a 3 week block then expect the standard Friday off day to recover them for the weekend.

Alan Couzens has a good series on planning the training week in this regard. Even 12hrs i.e. shifting a session from morning to night can help. For me my riding time during the day is fixed the solution was to moderate my load. This might mean doing less per day of my target work and splitting it across multiple days, or putting an easier L2 ride between 2 hard days so that I replenish a bit faster by not depleting fully in every ride.

Also, during hard workouts on the bike nutrition is extremely important. Glucose helps with lactate metabolization and glycogen utilization. People who are losing weight are often very afraid to eat on the bike the amount they should during a hard workout. A 2hr ride with extensive time at or above threshold can almost fully deplete glycogen stores. Allowing for more energy from blood glucose also helps spare a bit of glycogen again making replenishment faster and easier. I used to do my 2hr threshold rides with about 45-60min of easier riding, then eat a bar and maybe hit my 2x20 or 2x30 or whatever. I have now since upped my intake so that I consume an electrolyte/glucose solution almost constantly (about 20g/CHO/hr from that) and then split any solid foods or gels up so that I hit 70-90g/hr depending on what I'm doing. The higher it is above threshold, the more I tend to try to fuel my activities. All said and done a 2hr threshold workout will burn around 1500-1600kj for me and even if I hit 90g/hr that is still only 360cal/hr and I still come in at a large deficit. If I get that 140-180 on the bike, where it matters, that is less to eat off the bike when I don't need it and it won't improve recovery time.

Sky are really big about this. Why else do you think they feed so much at the end of stages? And Froome was willing to take a 1400 CHF fine for a few gels?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:39 pm 
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Kwalker- What point(s) do you disagree with?
Total calories?
It seems like we are both suggesting to feed while riding.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:19 pm 
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Trust me nutrition on the bike is good I suffer with Hypoglycaemia so keeping sugar high once riding is important to avoid a sugar crash . I feed at 70g ~ 360 kcal/hr with home-made gels either dumped into my water or taken direct from a gel bottle. They are maltodextrin/fructose in a 3:1 ratio with electrolyte and choline, I do not supplement with caffeine during training as it messes with my meds in large doses. Straight off the bike I have a 200g whey protein shake and 'some' food, normally toast and marmite as I am addicted to toast, its like crack for me. Interesting point about SKY.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:19 pm 
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I hope that you mean 200 grams as size- not 200 grams of protein?
Try for 80-100 grams after training.
Also consider real food over gels- gels can mess up your ability to absorb hydration.
Also- try ingredients other than maltodextrin and fructose.
Fructose can upset the gut, maltodextrin produces heat to breakdown- glucose and sucrose are great for riding.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:45 pm 
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Sorry for the error, I am currently having 50g of protein in my shakes so I can up that. Never thought of using different sugars, just been copying the commercial products Hi 5 etc.


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Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:45 pm 


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:46 pm 
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I find it hard to eat real food in a race situation so I tend to go with carbs in my drinks.


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