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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:12 am 
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Location: Bay Area
Carb intake depends on the ride, that is pretty high for a L2 ride for sure.

Boots- I disagree on the overall intake, especially for weight loss purposes, however, the OP has to determine for himself which is the primary goal and adjust for there.

Granted I weigh 72.72kg, but I don't think I hit 500 even on a day with a hard 3hr road race. People read the requirements in journals, which are based on endurance athletes with a very high training load and often misapply them. The technical recommended range for glycogen-depleting training is 4-6g/kg/day, but that is altered for people that are generally training in lower volumes. I find that during lighter training periods or on lighter days I do fine being below 4g/kg and generally carb cycle, but given what the OP has said I think thats a bit advanced at the moment.

Protein after riding, if you ride in the fed state, isn't really beneficial above 30g. Fat oxidation still occurs for a full 30min after ceasing activity and fat cells are primed for adipose storage during this time so a smart protocol is to wait 30min, take in 20-30 of clean protein and minimal fats, and then eat a whole food meal with the appropriate amount of CHO 30-60min later. The "magic window" does not exist in the fed state. Alan Aragon has some good articles on the subject. I used to get home and just slam a shake with protein and simple carbs, but simply taking the carbs out has actually helped un-stall my weight loss. The biggest other helper was to cycle carbs and purposely schedule keto/low carb days when appropriate and periods of training in which intensity is still planned, but moderated so that weight loss/fat loss can play a bigger role. At the moment my riding is down to 10hrs a week in the off-season and I'm often riding in a ketogenic state, but the primary goal is body fat loss and since I'm not riding that hard I do not need carbs. I generally have 2 days a week with a 4-5 hour intense carb feeding window, usually on day 3 of a 3 day block. By this point I'm almost completely depleted and there will be no spillover and I get 3 rides in a ketogenic state to accelerate lipid oxidation.

In October I will end up adding in some neuromuscular and moderate tempo work and switch back to a more normalized diet, especially on training days where I go over 70% of vo2 max for longer periods of time. I will still keep some low carb/keto days in there and continue to do fasted training. Once volume comes up, all that goes out the window and carbs come up again.

Diet periodization CAN (its not proven) be beneficial, but is not necessary. Louise Burke has a fantastic interview on the subject and Ben Zawacki wrote a good piece over at Embrocation Mag about how he puts this stuff in practice. I'm trying to be more dedicated to this aim than in years past and in 2 weeks have dropped a bit over 1.5lbs.

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Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:12 am 


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:27 am 
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Thanks for the long answer KWalker. I only fuel as appropriate so if on a club run I would only take a few haribo as an emergency backup as the pace is so slow, however most of my training is either VO2 max or FTP with recovery rides (no feeding on these) and in short 1-2 hour blocks during the week with a race and ride at the weekend totalling about 5 hours over two days). I cant ride fasted because within 40 mins I WILL bonk hard so I don't really see the point. I think shifting my focus onto calories earlier in the day may help things move along a bit. I have never split my food intake down into grams per food group so I will look at that.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:30 am 
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Just had a quick look and I average about 250 - 300g of cabs/day but have not been that careful with each input (i.e. I tend to input kcal for sports nutrition manually so they have not added up) will let you know what today (rest) and tomorrow (First ever cross race) look like!


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:32 pm 
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You are riding relatively few hours so I can see how the lower carbs might work ok.
At the same time you should experiment with higher carbs and higher calories and see
what works better for you.
I have tried both ends of the spectrum. I weigh 64-65 kg. I have dropped to as low as a little under 62 kg but found that my power, recovery, and ability to train multiple days suffered.
I have also raced successfully at more than 70 kg.
Currently, feeding my rides and eating a diet of about 60% carbs is working for me. Also, I base my calorie intake on the Mifflin Equation+ output from rides. As I mentioned, the numbers for my weight are substantially more than you are taking in at your weight. My base for a rest day is 2180 calories to stay even in terms of weight. That still requires 300 grams of carbs.
My nutritional advice come from Stacy Sims- I have daily access to her if I want it. You can google her if you want to find out more about her and her nutritional advice.
I suggest that you try KWalkers method for a month, and my method for a month. Track weight, keep a food journal, and also track how you feel, mood, sense of recovery, etc. Basically keep a daily journal.
See what works better for you.
All of this said, I do cycle my eating. When I am not training I switch my diet to lower glycemic carbs like beans and legumes, cut out simple sugars, etc.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:53 pm 
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boots 2000. When you say few hours I agree with you but I am not sure what I should be targeting to hit that cat 2 area. At the moment my values are top end of cat 3 on the cogan scale. Would you suggest more tempo work? I am not too restricted, at the moment I ride between 11 and 12 hours / week but focus on intense stuff and recovery. I would love to spend more time in the saddle, (I love riding around at tempo enjoying the scenery) if it would benefit my riding. An example would be riding to and from the weekly chain gang adding an hour and a half, adding an hour onto VO2 days and FTP days and extending my weekend ride to 80 miles plus maybe a ride after the cross race. I just don't want to burn out! I have always measured my training in terms of mileage and average 200 + a week. That said my FTP has increased from 290 to 340 (measured last night but not too accurate due to traffic issues) 11 months which I think is good progress, just havent got anywhere with weight. Last race next week and cross season/winter crit season has started.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:05 pm 
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Carb cycling seems really interesting, I have never heard of it, will get reading.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:32 pm 
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Location: Bay Area
Its going to take a lot of guessing and testing.

I move my carb intake higher when I'm doing a lot of top end work, racing a lot, or in a really big training block. During those times I basically do not monitor things all that close because chances are if I go out for a 4hr ride in the mountains or a really tough group ride plus time after I will likely burn 3200kj or so. Now I also fuel a lot during these rides, but afterwards there is no way I could even want to eat enough to exceed what I burned plus my daily intake. I often find myself having to find the will to want to snack more just to make sure I can recover in time. This is usually when I do a bit training camp or I have 2 races on the weekend and tough training mid-week.

You really have to think about it like you think about your training- what your work requires, how much, etc. Right now I'm taking it easy and decompressing from the off season and basically riding at Z2 and doing a hard group ride 1/week. Volume is 10-12 hrs whereas during the season I'm hitting 13-20hrs with quite a bit more intensity. My carbs go up a lot. Right now fat is 60% of my diet or more. During a period of high intensity or volume carbs are 60% or more.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:36 pm 
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Location: Bay Area
Also, calorie counting can really fry your brain and is honestly not that worth it in the end. I did it for years first as a lifter then as a ride.

Calories from different macronutrients and foods are not equal. For example, protein has a much higher thermic effect and thus a lower caloric impact. It is also not stored as a substrate. Different fats, sugars, and carbs are much the same- they do not necessarily have the same thermic effect and depending on how ramped up your metabolism is will have a much different impact.

Dig deep on Lyle McDonald's site for more info.

Then read this interview with a top sports nutritionist that works with a lot of pro endurance athletes: http://t.co/pmR5UvkaN8

Then read this article to put it into perspective: http://www.embrocationmagazine.com/online/what-i-eat

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:55 am 
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Kwalker. How would you suggest I split my training / eating in order to carb cycle. I get the science but cannot see how I can fit it into my schedule at the moment. Normal week:

Mon: recovery 80 mins <150watts just getting to work (could drive but would rather not).

Tues:60 mins split into two rides AM/PM at or around FTP for 40 mins followed by evening chaingang for 1 hr (full breakaway pace with higher cat riders).

Weds: FTP intervals 3x15 or 2x20 with ride into work (2 hrs)

Thurs: VO2 Max and Sprint day again 1.5 - 2 hrs

Friday : repeat of monday

Sat: Cross Race or longer 3-4hour ride following a program from the power meter book

Sun: Road Race 2-3 hrs or longer training ride


So the way I see it, without changing my training it would be hard to carb cycle. I could cut back on monday and friday I suppose.

Im really after any advice on changing my training and diet that I can pick up and follow as you guys did so well to help establish the training I have done so far this year.

Thanks again

James


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 2:33 pm 
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Location: Norway
It's still fairly tough. Most likely not good in the long run.

I would do 2-3 hours in Z2 on Wednesdays instead of the intervals.

I would also be careful with the Tuesday sessions as well. I have some good results with two hard workouts a day, but only as a one off thing. I know riders that have dug themselves a big hole by doing that over time. Perhaps alternate between doing easy rides and intervals on tuesday mornings each week?


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 Post subject: Base Training Help
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:46 pm 
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Hi guys,

Following a year of intervals and racing using the advice of a lot of people on the forum I have dropped my weight 5kgs and upped my FTP significantly to around 350 from 320 or less. Now I have a puzzle; I am racing cross at the weekends on one of the days but otherwise have stuck pretty much to the following schedule chasing FTP gains and power gains across the board:

Sat: Cross
Sun: Kitchen sink style ride ~ 70 miles 2x20 at ftp and then sweet spot plus some 2 min vo2 max.
Mon: 1 hour <150Watts
Tuesday: 2x 20 at 360 watts
Weds: 6x2 min targeting 450 watts and then 1x6 min >400watts
Thursday: Race winning intervals.
Friday: 1 hour <150watt maybe a little cross practice.

My first race will be in march or April so that is about 20 weeks away.

What kind of training should I do now? I dont want to loose my power gains and feel that I am making great progress but my club mates think I should be doing every ride at Zone 2 with the odd spurt up a hill and trying to max out the hours/distance.

What do you think? I have about 12/13 hours avalible per week to train discounting saturday (cross).

Thanks for the advice I am struggling to find a coach near me to help!


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 Post subject: Re: Base Training Help
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:01 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 9:21 pm
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Location: Norway, Oslo
Is the kitchen sink a proper one (= 4-6 hours of hell really), then I envy your ability to recover from the race the day before!

I would remove one day of intervals. 5 THOUGH interval days (none of yours are easy) is too much to sustain week in and week out. I suspect you will burn yourself out and break down but not recover. I'm worried it will break down your immune system and make you sick, injured or over-trained/under-rested, leaving you at a lower level than before. Especially if you combine it with weight loss. It's easy to get over-ambitious and bite over more than you can swallow.

How about doing easy ride or day off on thursday and then a race-prep on friday? Would leave you more rested and better prepared for the race.

I think your interval structure is overall good. Nice volume of training at FTP or higher and at the right duration.

I'm a fan of doing 2 or even 3 "pyramids" during winter training. A lot of people do one big pyramid of base - build - peak, but in my experience that leaves me slower and worse off when the season starts. I would do like you do, a lot of threshold intervals and SST for a month or 1.5 months before doing 2-3 weeks of mainly Vo2max combined with some threshold intervals before taking a couple of days extra rest and begin on a new pyramid. I think your teammates are plain wrong. Zone 2 is boring and contribute very little to FTP gains and even less to vo2max gains. They have their place, but 3 months concecutive is not the way to go (IMO).

My week suggestion:

Sat: Cross
Sun: Kitchen sink (60 min on SST + 40 min FTP and around 15-20 min vo2max)
Monday: 30-60 min <150w combined with some core strength and flexibility training
Tuesday: 2x20 at 360w or 3x20 at 320-330w
Weds: 5x4 min @ around 85-90% vo2max
Thursday: Day off or same as monday
Friday: raceprep, around 1 hr with 4-5 1minute bursts.

May I ask your weight, age and training background?

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 Post subject: Re: Base Training Help
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:39 pm 
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Posts: 159
Hi,

Thanks for the responce. I did think 3 months of zone 2 might get a bit dull! My background is racing this year following guidance from these forums with the training and prior to that lesuire cycling/sportives for three years. I am cat 3 road and middle of the bunch in the cyclocross (but this is my first ever season). I weigh about 80kg and am 190cm, I hope to loose a further 3-5kgs.

My sprint is a bit pants at 1200 W for 3 seconds (best this year)

4 min I can hold about 450W
10 min about 395-400w
20 min (no recent data) but basing intervals on 360 watts
1 hour (havent tested since early summer TT which was 343 W)

So I guess I am more of a TT man than a sprinter!

I am out to spain for two weeks at easter where I can get some quality long climbing work in.

My problem is I am so confused with all the 'blocks' etc, that I dont know where to start with the off season training. At the moment I am doing a 3 day style block followed by a day of light work where possible but others suggest one day on and one off.

Hope this helps,

James


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 Post subject: Re: Base Training Help
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:41 pm 
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oh and I am 28


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 Post subject: Re: Base Training Help
Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:41 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: Base Training Help
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 8:49 pm 
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Location: Norway, Oslo
You have just slightly higher numbers than me, so I can highly relate to where you are and where you want to be. Your powerprofile does indeed point towards a TT man, but don't feel limited by this!

I prefer one day on one day off over the X-day blocks because I feel more rested for the intervals and feel I benefit more from them. I've done 3-day blocks before but felt more worn out and got less time in each intensity zone during the week.

Build a couple of pyramids (base-build-highintensity) over the winter with around 4 weeks base, 4 week build and 2 week high intensity. Structure your week so you get enough time in the zones, but juggle around intervals to get the best fit for you.

My training this winter (roughly)

Oct: Base
Nov: Build
Dec: High intensity + rest
Jan: Base
Feb: Build
March: High intensity

Where my weeks are something like this:

Base
Mon: Around 70-90 minutes of SST
Tues: Rest day/flexibility/running
Wed: 60-70 minutes of FTP
Thurs: Rest day/flex/running
Friday: 70-90minutes of SST
Saturday: Long ride/day off every other week
Sundag: Long ride

Build
Mon: Around 60-70 minutes of FTP
Tues: Rest day/flexibility/running
Wed: Around 20-30 minutes at vo2max
Thurs: Rest day/flexibility/running
Friday: Around 60-70 minutes of FTP
Saturday: Long ride/day off every other week
Sundag: Long ride

High intensity
Mon: Around 20-30 minutes at vo2max
Tues: Rest day/flexibility/running
Wed: Over vo2max intensity. 15x1 minutes etc
Thurs: Rest day/flexibility/running
Friday: 20-30 minutes of vo2max
Saturday: Long ride/day off every other week
Sundag: Long ride

Are you familiar with TSS? I target around 700 for both base and build weeks, with one week every month around 900. High intensity weeks I usually drop down to 3-400 due to shorter duration. Last year I had 2-400 TSS/week (around 6-7 hours of training each week) and made it to 5w/kg with the same philosofy and training structure, so hopefully the added stress takes it up a notch.

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