HOT: Active* forum members generally gain 5% discount at starbike.com store!
Weight Weenies
* FAQ    * Search    * Trending Topics
* Login   * Register
HOME Listings Articles FAQ Contact About




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 49 posts ] 
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:30 pm
Posts: 1504
Thanks for that very interesting study KWALKER. It seemed to corroborate well with my personal situation. I have been racing and training a long time, since before power meters were generally available. So 80-90 RPM is where I would have guessed I produced maximum power, based on RPE and general subjective assessment. So after I started riding with a power meter it was disturbing that the average power numbers were always actually higher when mashing a huge gear at low cadence. I guess this is not a totally unique occurrence.

I am aware of all the other considerations too: big gears make it difficult to respond to sharp attacks, etc....but a lot of times it just comes down to going as hard as you can to the top of the hill, or time-trialing across a gap, etc.


Top
 Profile  
 
Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:54 pm 


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:00 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:35 pm
Posts: 1406
Location: Geneva
I need to mash more!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:23 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:30 pm
Posts: 1504
It also remains a fact that all the hour records were set with cadences of ~100RPM. So maybe elite athletes are elite because they have a higher percentage of fast twitch fibers that actually are more powerful/ efficient at high RPM. I am certainly not "elite" and I am treading at the low side of "mediocre". :unbelievable:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:34 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:08 am
Posts: 7558
Location: Geeeelong!
Keep in mind, "mashing" does not mean "pedalling slower".

Also, it has suggested that over the course of an athlete's career Type 2b* muscle fibres are actually recruited and behave more like Type 1 fibres. Which is why the top Pro's can hold speeds that we are pushing into our anaerobic capacity to maintain while they are still well within their aerobic zone.


*quite sure it's Type 2b, will stand corrected though

_________________
http://www.nicksquillari.com.au Forum Jedi


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:30 pm
Posts: 1504
Tinea Pedis wrote:
Keep in mind, "mashing" does not mean "pedalling slower".

Can you elaborate on that ?

When I got into cycling, smooth spinning was emphasized. So I always suspected that I actually "wasted time" worrying about a smooth stroke and should have spent more time simply pushing down hard on the pedals. As a result, I do have a pretty smooth spin and have spent many hrs spinning away at high cadence in criteriums, etc. ...it just doesn't produce as much power for me.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:38 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2006 6:35 am
Posts: 5014
Location: New York
Please take a look at this

http://www.peakscoachinggroup.com/%28S% ... adence.pdf

_________________
I never took drugs to improve my performance at any time. I will be willing to stick my finger into a polygraph test if anyone with big media pull wants to take issue. If you buy a signed poster now it will not be tarnished later. --Graeme Obree


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:19 am 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:08 am
Posts: 7558
Location: Geeeelong!
Rick wrote:
When I got into cycling

We need you to get past this. Things have changed. Sorry Rick, don't mean to sound harsh - I just cannot think of how better to put this.

And I did

viewtopic.php?p=993955#p993955

cannot find the study at present, but there was a large analysis (in the USA I think) where they had cyclists ranging from Cat 3 to Cat 1 and Pro's. The 'smoother' and 'rounded' pedal strokes primarily belonged to the lower level riders.

As the level (and power) improved, the more the stroke was a 'mash'.

_________________
http://www.nicksquillari.com.au Forum Jedi


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:39 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:30 pm
Posts: 3743
Location: Bay Area
Tinea Pedis wrote:
Keep in mind, "mashing" does not mean "pedalling slower".

Also, it has suggested that over the course of an athlete's career Type 2b* muscle fibres are actually recruited and behave more like Type 1 fibres. Which is why the top Pro's can hold speeds that we are pushing into our anaerobic capacity to maintain while they are still well within their aerobic zone.


*quite sure it's Type 2b, will stand corrected though

They can be recruited as oxidative fibers, but its not as big as people would think.

_________________
Don't take me too seriously.
Bike
Strava


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:05 am 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:08 am
Posts: 7558
Location: Geeeelong!
Point was, it contributes more than was originally thought.

_________________
http://www.nicksquillari.com.au Forum Jedi


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:44 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:30 pm
Posts: 1504
Tinea Pedis wrote:
Rick wrote:
When I got into cycling

We need you to get past this. Things have changed. Sorry Rick, don't mean to sound harsh - I just cannot think of how better to put this.

.

No "harshness" taken. It has just taken me a long time to really accept that smooth spinning is really not all that effective and "mashing" really works! :)

But I infer that one can also "mash" at higher cadence, i.e. concentrate on a forceful "Pulse" on the downstroke of each pedal rotation, and without regard to the smoothness of the rest of the stroke ?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:23 am 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:08 am
Posts: 7558
Location: Geeeelong!
Absolutely. The down stroke carries enough velocity that it whips the opposing 'up' stroke through.

_________________
http://www.nicksquillari.com.au Forum Jedi


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:31 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:43 pm
Posts: 2906
Location: Canada
why not forget all the pedal smoothness and cadence misonceptions alltogether?

Just focus on producing the required effort for the required time duration, then, post-ride analysis should take care of what cadence you naturally are using at different power output.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:59 pm 
Offline
Formerly known as wassertreter

Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:08 am
Posts: 1926
Location: Pedal Square
I can very well imagine that riding an artificially smooth stroke comes with an efficiency cost, even if well trained (hindsight is 20/20, too). The human physiology lends itself way better to loaded leg extension than (loaded) retraction. I can't think of any need to retract with extra weight in the evolution of hominids, am I missing something?

Edit: loaded retraction, for clarity.

_________________
Bikes: Raw Ti, 650b flatbar CX


Last edited by HillRPete on Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:32 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:14 am
Posts: 957
Location: Sweden
Unless you retract you're also pushing dead weight... I'll bet the retraction costs less than pushing the dead weight... while I do agree that taking a smooth pedal stroke to the brink of perfection might not serve a purpose...

_________________
Roadbike
Planet X Stealth w/ drop bars

Mountainbike
Van Nicholas Zion Ti


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:24 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:30 pm
Posts: 1504
devinci wrote:
why not forget all the pedal smoothness and cadence misonceptions alltogether?

Just focus on producing the required effort for the required time duration, then, post-ride analysis should take care of what cadence you naturally are using at different power output.

Good idea; that is how I got on to this idea in the first place. But I couldn't really quantify it until I had a power meter.
In the past, timed efforts always had some uncertainty due to weather conditions and day-to-day variations in perceived exertion. And when going by perceived exertion I always choose a higher cadence. It was only by noticing that the power was actually higher when pedaling at very low cadence that I started questioning. With the power meter it doesn't have to be post-ride, because I set the unit to show both 3 second power and power averaged over the interval. So it is instant faeedback with the average also displayed for any length interval I choose.

Then, I also thought that maybe I actually am "exerting" more at high cadence, but it is just inefficient exertion that does not translate into power to the cranks. It does make some logical sense that efficiency would be higher at low cadence, because you can imagine that if taken to extremes, you could flail away at high rpms in such a low gear that you are producing no power. But you can always stomp hard on the pedals even at very low cadence.


Top
 Profile  
 
Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:24 am 


Top
  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 49 posts ] 
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

   Similar Topics   Author   Replies   Views   Last post 
There are no new unread posts for this topic. Bura SL w/ SiSL2 w/power vs. Campy Super Record w/ power tap

in Road

cpparkcity

0

746

Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:54 pm

cpparkcity View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. If you train with power, do you race with power too?

[ Go to page: 1, 2 ]

in Training

nickd01

18

1938

Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:00 am

fireball05 View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. Power meter issues + MTB power meter on a roadbike

in Road

AlexJ

3

555

Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:09 pm

Geoff View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. How high do you pump?

[ Go to page: 1, 2, 3 ]

in Everything wheels

Zoro

40

1974

Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:44 am

Zoro View the latest post


cron
It is currently Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:47 pm

All times are UTC + 1 hour




Advertising   –  FAQ   –  Contact   –  Convert   –  About

© Weight Weenies 2000-2013
hosted by starbike.com


How to get rid of these ads? Just register!


Powered by phpBB