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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:51 am 
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Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:35 am
Posts: 171
Hi all.

Just a few question about Maximum heart rate and Increasing the Lactic acid threshold.

i have read a few books about training and a few books say that your maximum heart rate decreases as you get older and other books state that your maximum heart rate is there for life. i tend to beleive that your maximum heart rate is the same throughout your life (or until you are much much older).

another question i have is how do i increase my lactic acid threshold? i want to be able to get more out of my legs when i ride and on training nights with the club, i find that if i fail some nights because of HR and lactic acid.

Any tips from you guys?

Thanks
Slick1


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:29 am 
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Maximum heart rate drops as age increases, though it does less so for some than for others. When I first started cycling at 14, I was routinely able to get my heart rate above 210-212. Now, 10 years on, it's a very rare occasion that it gets above 200, and when it does I'm about ready to drop!

As for increasing lactate threshhold riding, the best thing to do is figure out, through careful use of your heart rate monitor and repetition, exactly (or as close as practical) where your LT is. Then, once or maybe twice a week (I do twice) begin doing medium-length intervals between 2 and 5 beats above your LT. My LT right now is about 178, so I do my LT intervals at 180 to 183, 5 minutes per interval, with 8 minute recovery periods in between. I do these twice a week in my build period, and typically do between 4 and 6 intervals per session, depending on how I feel. The goal here is quality; the last interval should be just as strong as the first. If not, you're going too hard and/or not recovering enough.

If you have any other questions, feel free to PM me.

-Matt


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Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:29 am 


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:16 am 
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Thanks for that. I swear i have read in the heart rate monitor cookbook for cyclists that your Maximum heart rate doesn't drop with your age.

Thanks
slick1


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:24 am 
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Hello,

there are two ways of bringing your LT higher. A nice way to put it it. A push method or a pull method. If you go for the pull method, it is exactly like how allezkmiec explained it. Your training above it and pulling it higher(improving it)

A push method is a little easier, so your training below your LT, but your doing more volume(less quality) and pushing your higher.

I do both but a lot of times when I am training lots I tend to do more of the push method. Its not so hard on your body. You wont get sick to often doing this method. But because of these reasons, dont feel that the pull method is not need. If you had to do only one, then the Pull Method is more important.

hope that helps a little


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:43 am 
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slick1 wrote:
Thanks for that. I swear i have read in the heart rate monitor cookbook for cyclists that your Maximum heart rate doesn't drop with your age.

Thanks
slick1


the book was wrong. Your HR does drop with age.

not everyone is the same, but expect the "average" person to drop by 1 per year. The rule of thumb max HR is 220 minus your age.

this rule of thumb doesn't apply to me.

31 years old. Max HR 201

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:09 pm 
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The general formula of 220-your age works perfectly for me right now, but a few months ago, it didn't. I had an LT test done in June of this year and my LT was 146bpm, It's now 150bpm. So what ever formula you use, unless you get a lab LT test done, recognize, it's just an estimate if it's based on percentage of a guestimated maximum. Sometimes it's close enough, but for some folks (like some 31 year olds with a max of 201 around here :wink: ) it could do more harm than good. And while I've watched my max HR drop from 185 to 181 in the last four years, I've also increase my LT 4bpm in just four months.

I trained for three years based on formulas without ever getting an LT test done and saw little improvement because I was just training too hard. Now that I have proper zones mapped out for me, I've gained more in the month of November than I did from June through September of this year. While many here will argue, I'm still a fan of LSD training. I've spent the last month with 70% of my time between 111 and 127bpm, and not more than 20% between 128 and 145bpm and I've already gained 10-15 watts at LT. This isn't to say that there isn't a time and a place for high intensity workouts, intervals, and tempo rides, but if you don't increase the amount of oxygen getting the cells through the development of new capillaries, you'll never gain anything. Intense training can actually deminish the body's ability to generate new blood vessels. That's why working a program that starts by building a solid base, then moving into incrimentally more intense workouts as the season progresses will provide the greatest results. Tempo rides are very important, but if you're doing them before 12 weeks of base work, you're won't see the gains you would otherwise see with a solid base first.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:40 pm 
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:goodpost:


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 1:13 am 
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rockymtnway wrote:
The general formula of 220-your age works perfectly for me right now, but a few months ago, it didn't. I had an LT test done in June of this year and my LT was 146bpm, It's now 150bpm. So what ever formula you use, unless you get a lab LT test done, recognize, it's just an estimate if it's based on percentage of a guestimated maximum. Sometimes it's close enough, but for some folks (like some 31 year olds with a max of 201 around here :wink: ) it could do more harm than good. And while I've watched my max HR drop from 185 to 181 in the last four years, I've also increase my LT 4bpm in just four months.

I trained for three years based on formulas without ever getting an LT test done and saw little improvement because I was just training too hard. Now that I have proper zones mapped out for me, I've gained more in the month of November than I did from June through September of this year. While many here will argue, I'm still a fan of LSD training. I've spent the last month with 70% of my time between 111 and 127bpm, and not more than 20% between 128 and 145bpm and I've already gained 10-15 watts at LT. This isn't to say that there isn't a time and a place for high intensity workouts, intervals, and tempo rides, but if you don't increase the amount of oxygen getting the cells through the development of new capillaries, you'll never gain anything. Intense training can actually deminish the body's ability to generate new blood vessels. That's why working a program that starts by building a solid base, then moving into incrimentally more intense workouts as the season progresses will provide the greatest results. Tempo rides are very important, but if you're doing them before 12 weeks of base work, you're won't see the gains you would otherwise see with a solid base first.


Couldn't agree with you more.

Curious as to your mention of my Max HR. You dont believe me?

I've not been training now for 9 months +
Back then I was able to sustain 183 for 40 minutes. 175-178 on 2 hour rides.

I'm getting back into training having been forced off the bike through a combination of bad back, other pressures on my time and moving further away from work. I was commuting 12-15 miles each way to work and back mon-fri all year round for 2 years. Aim now is for 3 months base training in the gym (its cold in the UK Dec-Feb) then use my new commute (35 miles each way) as a way to get 3 hours training in, effectively for free (time wise anyway). Takes me approx 3 hours by train.

put simply, I firmly believe in build a firm base fitness (lots of miles at low intensity), then look to raise your LT with intervals. The base, I see as like the foundations your house is built upon.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 2:19 am 
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tippster wrote:
Curious as to your mention of my Max HR. You dont believe me?

Actually, I believe you completely, it's just a perfect example of why sometimes lab testing is important. If you had never taken yourself up to max and were just basing numbers on a formula, you probably would have been completely undertraining. I on the otherhand am quite the opposite, and was training at too high of an intensity for years, and am only now strarting to see the improvement I've been searching for because I finally spent the money on an LT test. Formulas are better than nothing, but there is so much individual variability that I'd recommend testing to anyone who's trained for a while and isn't seeing the results they'd like to see in LT power.

Also, I understand and can sympathize with a bad season and having to start from scratch. 2005 was a dirge for me (surgery, auto accident, divorce), I was never able to build a good base, and instead went straight into tempo and interval training. You're wise to get back to base over the winter. 2005 brought 5 watts gained at LT in four months of intense training 8-13 hours a week. Base isn't everything, but without it, you have nothing.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:21 pm 
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rockymtnway wrote:
And while I've watched my max HR drop from 185 to 181 in the last four years, I've also increase my LT 4bpm in just four months.

... Intense training can actually deminish the body's ability to generate new blood vessels. That's why working a program that starts by building a solid base, then moving into incrimentally more intense workouts as the season progresses will provide the greatest results. Tempo rides are very important, but if you're doing them before 12 weeks of base work, you're won't see the gains you would otherwise see with a solid base first.


Just to illustrate the breadth of opinion on these topics, I have to disagree with some of this. First off, a difference of 4 bpm in HR can be entirely due to external factors and is also well withing the margin of error for monitoring heart rate. I'd place much more faith in your gains in terms of wattage at a given level of lactate.

And as far as I know, there is no documented evidence that intense training will reduce the body's ability to create new blood vessels. This sounds quite a bit like what one coach (Rick Crawford) used to say about "blowing up" capillaries with intensity, something he has since abandoned due to a lack of evidence.

That said, what qualifies as "intense" varies. I work with Max Testa at UC Davis for testing and training programs and Sunday's workout was 3hrs w/ a 30' climb at and just below OBLA (4mmol lactate/l) and 2x 20' intervals on the flats done at 20w below OBLA. This would definitely qualify as intense when compared to many of the old-school Friel, etc devotees. The shorter, super-LT intervals will start coming into play as I get closer to my target races, but I'll do stuff like this year-round.

The bonus is that I get to avoid the drudge of endless hours grinding away on LSD rides! :lol: I train about 12-15 hours/week and my longest rides are 3.5 hrs - relatively easy to fin into a schedule with work, kids, etc. For the OP, many recommend the 2x 20' intervals as a solid way to increase your LT. and don't worry about your maxHR - it's pretty irrelevant. Find your LT via testing, whether in a lab or a series of TT efforts (something like 30' all-out TT effort, take your average HR or preferably wattage for the last 20' as an estimate of your LT. Then use that to set your zones.

So many different opinions on these subjects! :D

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:49 pm 
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Quote:
So many different opinions on these subjects!

That's the beauty of the forum, isn't it?

I wasn't trying to make a point over 4bpm other than things can move in opposite directions relative to max and LT, thus an LT test is the only way to really have numbers that matter. I gained nothing this summer (5 watts @ LT) doing a lot of zone 3 & 4 work, but now that I'm putting in some serious zone 2 time, I'm getting gains (10-15 watts @LT in 6 weeks). I doubt there's any magic program that works for everyone out there, I just know that for me, trying to build without a low intensity base did nothing for me.

My guess is that there's enough variability in human physiology through the lifecycle and in individuals that your progam is every bit as valid as what I'm doing. It just goes to show that if you're working a program that isn't working for you, find another program.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 7:28 pm 
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rockymtnway wrote:
Quote:
So many different opinions on these subjects!

That's the beauty of the forum, isn't it?

I wasn't trying to make a point over 4bpm other than things can move in opposite directions relative to max and LT, thus an LT test is the only way to really have numbers that matter. I gained nothing this summer (5 watts @ LT) doing a lot of zone 3 & 4 work, but now that I'm putting in some serious zone 2 time, I'm getting gains (10-15 watts @LT in 6 weeks). I doubt there's any magic program that works for everyone out there, I just know that for me, trying to build without a low intensity base did nothing for me.

My guess is that there's enough variability in human physiology through the lifecycle and in individuals that your progam is every bit as valid as what I'm doing. It just goes to show that if you're working a program that isn't working for you, find another program.


It is interesting. I am the exact opposite, with best gains in functional threshold power and maximal aerobic power when my volume of L3/L4 training is very high, with almost no L2 and L5+ training. But there is a caution here because this approach depends upon a solid taper for peak performance, which may be one reason why L2 is more suited to some. Another reason is duration and intensity. One of the problems with traditional LSD training is the definition of duration and intensity, which in a purist fashion requires a very long duration, probably longer than what most undertake. OTOH, many perform all or part of their LSD training at an intensity somewhat higher than classic levels, not quite L3 but high enough to compensate for a not non-optimal LSD duration. Finally, even in carefully controlled studies baselines are hard to establish. One thing is clear: the least trained have the most to gain from any training and this principle extends to those coming back from any significant reduction in training volume. Thankfully, the tools now exist for anyone to objectively quantify their training load and track it both inter and intra-season.

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Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 7:28 pm 


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 Post subject: we're all different
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:56 pm 
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everyone is different. my max is roughly 185 (and it does seem to fall a beat each year or two). but my LT is usually 175 during race season (165 in off season). that puts my peak LT at 95% my MHR.

MHR means very little, just get that LT up as high as you can.

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