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 Post subject: Re: Racing Weight
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:51 am 
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Imaking20 wrote:
Weird, so bodybuilders DO know the best way to get nutrients PWO...

Protein shakes have their purpose. Timing is everything!

Not really. BB'ers do know how to best get nutrients for their sport. Put them on a bike, with the same diet, and they won't be putting out the equal effort as if you put them on a bikeriders diet(more carbs).

If I look at my caloric intake on a training day, where I have a 2 hour session on the bike(about 1300 calories burned), I'd need to eat 3800 calories just to break even. Not impossible, but not that pleasent either. I could drink a proteinshake, but it wouldn't be to satisfy hunger.

Oatcakes probably contain a lot of added sugar. Bread, white bread that is, also contain a lot of sugar. The whole idea of Racing Weight is to eat the right types of fuel. Instead of eating white bread, you should eat wholegrain bread. Instead of white rice and pasta, you should eat wholegrain rice and wholegrain pasta.

For me, the biggest challenge has been to eat enough. On normal days I have a hard time keeping up(eating about 3100 calories), so imagine what would have to be consumed after a 3-4 hour ride.

So as far as I see, there's no reason to drink a proteinshake to keep away hunger(as many do). You'll have a hard enough time just eating enough of the right stuff! The proteinshake can be usefull as a restitution drink if taken with some carbs, but then again the famous chocolate milk has a similar effect.

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 Post subject: Re: Racing Weight
Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:51 am 


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 Post subject: Re: Racing Weight
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:13 pm 
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Just cut all the processed foods out of your diet, reducing the amount of sugar intake to a minimum.
I lost 4kg doing so and started feeling much stronger overall.


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 Post subject: Re: Racing Weight
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:09 pm 
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I have to correct a few things here since Racing Weight relies on some bad BMR calculators/usage and some old broscience. In general it has some good guidelines, but gives calorie calculations that are too high and misinterprets research on a number of subjects.

For BMR use 14-16 cal/lb for maintaining weight, 11-13 to lose weight. In general, it is recommended that endurance athletes aim for 4-6g/kg/day of CHO, but this bumps up towards 7 for hardcore endurance athletes and under for those that ride very low volume. With this and your BMR as well as free calorie tracking software it is very easy to figure out how to be in a deficit, fuel your rides, and make sure that you are on track. Lyle McDonald has some excellent articles on how this accounts for the thermic effects of food and activity as well as general activity factor. Add demands of rides on top for total calories/day and end up with a moderate deficit. I find 500cal is good because you will make errors portioning throughout the day and it allows for variance up or down.

As for PWO shakes, Alan Aragon lots of others have some great info on this myth of broscience, which I practiced for many years. The studies on the subjects were all done on FASTED subjects (15hr fasts or more) who were put through depletion protocols first. If you are not fasted when you start exercising and have a decent amount of liver glycogen (even after sleeping), your stores are fine for all but the longest and most intense workouts. Also, the magic window is then not magic. Your body can get glucose from a meal for up to 6 hours after, so you will still be processing glucose from the meal during your riding and often times after it as well. The glycogen replenishment rate does double after exercise and GLUT4 receptors are apparently more active, but they stay active for a long time after and you remain insulin sensitive for quite some time after as well. In many cases the drinks that bodybuilders slam are way too high in calories and simple CHO to shuttle the majority to muscle glycogen stores and many sugars are metabolized by the liver and turned into lipids, especially fructose. Fat cells are equally sensitive to storage and CHO can easily be stored as fats at this time.

So as a whole since you can only replenish around 75g of CHO to glycogen during this not-really-a-window-window a decent meal with around that much CHO is ideal. If its a big ride, have another an hour after and so on. If not, don't worry about it.

Also, studies show that there are NO performance differences in meal composition after training whether it be CHO only, protein only, or protein/CHO. The only differences were found when athletes were given several exhaustive workouts within 8hrs of each other. Otherwise, the body replenishes at a fixed rate unless you do an extremely high volume of work, in which it raises slightly on average (think pro tour riders or distance runners who simply HAVE to eat more CHO than normal to do what they do). In addition, studies have found that a moderate portion of fat does not impair absorption during this period as well.

My general recommendation to people is center CHO around your rides in portions that your body can absorb and utilize. Eat most of your CHO after and in the evening as replenishment rates are slightly higher then and studies on several different active and non-active target groups indicate that evening-predominant CHO intake leads to less bodyfat gain/more bodyfat loss, more weight loss, better biomarkers, increased energy, and higher reported happiness.

I do not have time at work right now to Evernote this, but Lyle McDonald, Alan Aragon, Layne Norton, and others have some good resources in this regard especially Aragon's research review (which has one article that pulls together every study on the magic window and rips them apart, as well as others on what can and cannot use before, during, and after exercise).

What this would look like generally:

Before workout if AM: I wouldn't wake up an hour early to get a mondo breakfast unless its a big/draining ride. You won't re-top up liver glycogen during this time and if you have been eating well all along should have enough glycogen to fuel your ride.

Before workout if PM: Eat well throughout the day- you can absorb 50g of CHO as glycogen every 60-102min, so its fairly easy to get what you need from well-rounded wheels with healthy, least-processed starches. 2-3hrs before you can get away with a bit more CHO so have a diverse meal with enough starches to fuel your workout, but I wouldn't go over 75g of CHO unless its a big, long workout. You can also choose to snack beforehand by hunger, using dried fruits or small things that are easy to process (100-200cal) in time.

During your ride eating depends on the ride. People advise a 50% replacement rate, which is hard for me to hit. I find that in a 2 hr ride a bar and a sports drink is what I can do for normal rides. If its vo2 work or hard shit, its basically gels, sports drinks, and dried fruits. Longer than 2hrs and I attempt for 1.5 bars an hour just breaking them in half and eating every 30min. You body will use some of this as glucose for fueling your ride, and the rest will help spare glycogen. Not eating does not make you burn more fat for fuel. It just makes you deplete more glycogen and slows recovery. Fat usage is determined by individual physiology, your training, intensity level of the ride, and various fitness markers. Fasted low output training can be useful upon waking for those concerned ONLY with weight loss in the base period doing relatively low intensity. Anyways, eat during your rides, whatever it is that is CHO rich to keep you fueled. Avoid fiber, lots of fats, and proteins as they are difficult to process and utilize for energy in the short term.

After your ride: As I said above its pretty easy. If you burned 1000kj and one big meal puts you at your mark for the day then that's all you have. If it doesn't, eat by comfort aiming to hit your energy totals and daily intake. If you did something really hard or killed a ton of KJ, try to follow up the big post ride meal with another if you can, but if it impedes a nap, sleep, or other recovery don't fret it.

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 Post subject: Re: Racing Weight
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:12 pm 
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Kermithimself wrote:
Not really. BB'ers do know how to best get nutrients for their sport. Put them on a bike, with the same diet, and they won't be putting out the equal effort as if you put them on a bikeriders diet(more carbs).

If I look at my caloric intake on a training day, where I have a 2 hour session on the bike(about 1300 calories burned), I'd need to eat 3800 calories just to break even. Not impossible, but not that pleasent either. I could drink a proteinshake, but it wouldn't be to satisfy hunger.

Oatcakes probably contain a lot of added sugar. Bread, white bread that is, also contain a lot of sugar. The whole idea of Racing Weight is to eat the right types of fuel. Instead of eating white bread, you should eat wholegrain bread. Instead of white rice and pasta, you should eat wholegrain rice and wholegrain pasta.

For me, the biggest challenge has been to eat enough. On normal days I have a hard time keeping up(eating about 3100 calories), so imagine what would have to be consumed after a 3-4 hour ride.

So as far as I see, there's no reason to drink a proteinshake to keep away hunger(as many do). You'll have a hard enough time just eating enough of the right stuff! The proteinshake can be usefull as a restitution drink if taken with some carbs, but then again the famous chocolate milk has a similar effect.


PWO = post workout. I'm not referring to what they eat the rest of the day. For muscle recovery (or building), the most important nutrients you put into your body are immediately after your workout. The majority of the sports world agrees with this.

And the assumption you're making about the difference in carbs is likely comparing a cyclist to a BB who is cutting down for a competition. During regular weight training the carb intake for a BB is quite high itself. I haven't made a huge adjustment in my carb intake with cycling as compared to just lifting.

Tinea Pedis wrote:
How does "protein shakes can induce satiety" suddenly translate to "so bodybuilders DO know the best way to get nutrients PWO..."

:noidea:

Quote:
But he cites studies which show protein shakes are effective.


^This is what I was referring to.
I've never really heard of or seen people using a PWO shake as a meal replacement or as a means of feeling full. Lower quality protein is typically what leads to the bloating sensation which is why one of the first rules is finding the supplement that works best with you. For me, that's Gaspari products.

When I read new "ground breaking" nutritional information in cycling magazines and websites I'm constantly amused by how far their mainstream is behind BB nutrition.


As an example, my PWO shake is 20-24 grams of quality protein, 6 grams of glutamine, 5 grams of additional BCAA, 50 grams of glucose. I drink this after weight training or a 2-3+ hr ride. Otherwise it's chocolate milk. Either way, I'm eating within the next hour anyway.

Quote:
My general recommendation to people is center CHO around your rides in portions that your body can absorb and utilize. Eat most of your CHO after and in the evening as replenishment rates are slightly higher then and studies on several different active and non-active target groups indicate that evening-predominant CHO intake leads to less bodyfat gain/more bodyfat loss, more weight loss, better biomarkers, increased energy, and higher reported happiness.


The first half of this paragraph is basically how I've designed my meal schedules for the last 6-8 years. I basically build everything outward from my workout.
I've also NEVER heard anyone encourage more carbs in the evening. Even recent cycling articles I've read talk about cutting out later carbs to keep bodyfat lower. Speaking firsthand, I can also say this method works better for me.


(I'm probably going to get slammed for the brevity of my responses. Damn day jobs...)


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 Post subject: Re: Racing Weight
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:27 pm 
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Location: DC
You should do some more research then, here are some links:

Summary:
"From the Institute of Biochemistry and Food Science, The Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Rehovot, Israel:

This study was designed to investigate the effect of a low-calorie diet with carbohydrates eaten mostly at dinner on anthropometric, hunger/satiety, biochemical, and inflammatory parameters. Hormonal secretions were also evaluated. Seventy-eight police officers (BMI >30) were randomly assigned to experimental (carbohydrates eaten mostly at dinner) or control weight loss diets for 6 months. On day 0, 7, 90, and 180 blood samples and hunger scores were collected every 4 h from 0800 to 2000 hours. Anthropometric measurements were collected throughout the study. Greater weight loss, abdominal circumference, and body fat mass reductions were observed in the experimental diet in comparison to controls."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21475137

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... eight.html

http://www.simplyshredded.com/carbs-at- ... eyman.html

Softer et. al (2011) is the reference tag for the study that examined the Israeli police officers.

http://www.ergo-log.com/carbsintheeveningonly.html

These all reference similar studies. The idea is that you don't want a ton of fiber or saturated fats with them so that insulin purposely falls. The myth about not eating them at night was from misinterpreted broscience that later became dogma and incorrectly interpreted hormone response curves, especially for cortisol.

I'm time limited as well right now, but just check the broader internet. This myth was dispelled years ago. The original body of evidence focused on CALORIES fed at night vs. morning, not carbs. Composition of the meal matters. Lots of successful dieting strategies and diet programs assign a high portion of carbs at night. Plus- if you train after work and eat at say 8PM why would you not want to eat carbs? You're primed to replenish them for roughly 6 hours and it won't affect GH or LH output during sleep one bit since blood sugar will fall before bed.

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 Post subject: Re: Racing Weight
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:39 pm 
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Cool. I'll be happy to read those. My fascination with improvement outweighs my desire to be right.


After reading them, I'll see if I can find the most recent cycling bit I read that suggested cutting off carbs. If nothing else, it would be worth me looking it over again with a different POV.

Edit: I like Layne's piece. I'd feel better if everything wasn't referring to the same (sole) study though. Interesting nonetheless. In agreement with Dr. Norton's verdict, I won't go shifting the bulk of my carbohydrate intake to night time but it's nice to "know" that I don't have to stick with my low-to-no carb policy at night. :thumbup:


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 Post subject: Re: Racing Weight
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:38 pm 
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Yah I would say the bottom line isn't that there is a secret strategy to have the bulk of anything anywhere in the day, but not to be phobic about feeding times as in the days of old. If you ride in the evening it doesn't make sense to avoid carbs as there is no magical cutoff. I guess the idea on non-riding days or days where you ride other times is that insulin sensitivity is already pre-determined and its less likely to cause problems as resting cortisol is lower.

Strength athletes seem to do well on carb back loading, which depending on what version you try has ALL the carbs coming at night after a workout and from pretty simple/sugary sources (think a whole pizza or a big serving of ice cream). A friend of mine that is a powerlifter went from 25% to 9% bodyfat on that diet eating a lot of crap. I wouldn't really recommend it for cyclists or most normal people, however.

I think the biggest revelation for me is the farce that is the magic PWO window. I followed that for about 10 years, but there is no reason to fret as long as someone maintains balance however that may be. Since there are no magic amounts of meals or weird zones or windows dieting becomes mentally easier as one focuses solely on in vs. out, food quality, and getting adequate fuel for rides so they can burn off the calories in the first place.

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 Post subject: Re: Racing Weight
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:54 pm 
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It's always been humorous to me when people cited a specific time that you're not allowed to eat carbs after... so if you workout after that you're SOL, huh? Right..
My nutrition on either side of my workouts is pretty important to me and that's my most consistent rule. Again, it will still be nice to give myself a little break if my workout ends late and dinner gets pushed back. You really have no idea how OCD I can get about it!

I remember some leg days after eating a whole pizza AND some ice cream... POWAHH! And gas...

I've got a buddy back in LV who competes in Strong Man and he was the first to tell me the first 5-20 minutes was critical (opposed to the 60 minutes I'd previously followed). At this point, I am considerably more relaxed about it and also doubt it's real relevance - but I also bring a shake with me to the gym regardless. After a hard workout at the gym it's nice to get something in my stomach right away - and a little indulgence to look forward to.


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 Post subject: Re: Racing Weight
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:48 pm 
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Bodybuilders should almost NEVER be followed. They buy into trends that come and go every few years just like they buy into supplements. First it was low fat diets, then ratio diets, then low carb, then ketogenic, then cycled ketogenic, then cycled carb, no fasting and backloading. Oddly enough, they still manage to get in the same shape doing all of these fads and phases.

I've been OCD myself to the point where it was annoying everyone around me.

Who is your strongman friend? I used to train with Kevin Nee back in the day and still follow the sport a bit.

That 5-20min window is not critical unless you are fasted or competing again in a short period of time. I still will drink a chocolate milk after a really hard workout or something not because I think its a magic window, but because I'm usually really hungry and/or need some reward.

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 Post subject: Re: Racing Weight
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:25 pm 
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My only remaining interest with BB nutrition and training is at least all of that information is out there and you can find what works for you. I haven't met many cyclists (or fighters, actually) who had a very in-depth knowledge of nutrition or varied practices.

Strongman friend is a guy name George Prince. He's definitely not at the level of Kevin Nee - super nice guy though and a beast of a man. The guy is bright red though (if you know what I mean)


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 Post subject: Re: Racing Weight
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:20 am 
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The content of this book is ok, but I regretted buying it.

There is an interesting chart that tells you how many pounds you should aim to lose in a season to get closer to your ideal racing weight, based on body fat %. I always thought I could lose some weight to get faster, especially since it looked like I had gained a few pounds right after the season. So I plunked down some cash to get a complete DEXA scan to found out my body fat %, and calculate how many pounds I can lose.

The DEXA results showed I had 5% body fat. The Racing Weight chart said I can't lose any more weight.

Needless to say, there was absolutely no point to read any further in that book past that chart.


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 Post subject: Re: Racing Weight
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:55 pm 
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You do not need to quote the post above


You should read the book based on what you just wrote.

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 Post subject: Re: Racing Weight
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:32 pm 
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Quote:
You should read the book based on what you just wrote.


Meant: There was no point to read any further, but that doesn't mean I didn't.

The rest of the book was some generic advice on timing of food intake (nothing that can't be found with a quick google search), a very useless section of supplements (summary of that chapter: take supplements... or don't), and even a more useless section about food recipes ... but the worst yet was pages upon pages of breakdown of food some random pros eat in one day without any mention of the specifics of their training for that day nor any mention of the base calorie intake for that athlete.. Then lastly, a large appendix with some very basic strength training exercises.


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