HOT: Active* forum members generally gain 5% discount at starbike.com store!
Weight Weenies
* FAQ    * Search    * Trending Topics
* Login   * Register
HOME Listings Blog NEW Articles FAQ Contact About




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Strength Study
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:18 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:00 pm
Posts: 87
Has anyone read this? I tried to search, but couldnt find anything.

Abstract
We investigated the effects of strength maintenance training on thigh muscle cross-sectional area (CSA), leg strength, determinants of cycling performance, and cycling performance. Well-trained cyclists completed either (1) usual endurance training supplemented with heavy strength training twice a week during a 12-week preparatory period followed by strength maintenance training once a week during the first 13 weeks of a competition period (E + S; n = 6 [♂ = 6]), or (2) usual endurance training during the whole intervention period (E; n = 6 [♂ = 5, ♀ = 1]). Following the preparatory period, E + S increased thigh muscle CSA and 1RM (p < 0.05), while no changes were observed in E. Both groups increased maximal oxygen consumption and mean power output in the 40-min all-out trial (p < 0.05). At 13 weeks into the competition period, E + S had preserved the increase in CSA and strength from the preparatory period. From the beginning of the preparatory period to 13 weeks into the competition period, E + S increased peak power output in the Wingate test, power output at 2 mmol l(-1) [la(-)], maximal aerobic power output (W (max)), and mean power output in the 40-min all-out trial (p < 0.05). The relative improvements in the last two measurements were larger than in E (p < 0.05). For E, W (max) and power output at 2 mmol l(-1) [la(-)] remained unchanged. In conclusion, in well-trained cyclists, strength maintenance training in a competition period preserved increases in thigh muscle CSA and leg strength attained in a preceding preparatory period and further improved cycling performance determinants and performance.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20799042


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Strength Study
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:19 pm
Posts: 204
Thanks for sharing. Looks like I should consider strength training.

I wonder what kind of reps they were doing during the strength training.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Strength Study
Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:44 pm 


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Strength Study
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:43 pm
Posts: 2923
Location: Canada
increasing muscle CSA will likely increase raw power but now automatically power to weight ratio.

They do not state what the endurance group were doing for training regiment.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Strength Study
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:40 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:00 pm
Posts: 87
Its interesting that they were able to improve watts even with maintnance workouts in the season. I think from the abstract we can conclude that the endurance group was also doing some kind of high intensity because they were racing.

Have you read the full study Devinci?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Strength Study
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:21 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 10:39 am
Posts: 2348
Yes, the study has been posted before. IIRC, it is the most compelling study for endurance improvements via strength training. However there are some questionable results of the study.

See if you can find them.

_________________
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Strength Study
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:51 am 
Offline
Formerly known as wassertreter

Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:08 am
Posts: 2017
Location: Pedal Square
Unfortunately I don't have access to the study -- is this about off-bike strenght training?

I'd be interested to try some of the on-bike exercises that have been brought up by Tapeworm here recently.

_________________
Bikes: Raw Ti, 650b flatbar CX


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Strength Study
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:59 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:00 pm
Posts: 87
I found this browsing the web. Pretty interesting, but as tapewom said there are some downfalls. The test group is only 12 people. Its kind of hard to draw conclusions with this small group, BUT if everyone that did the weights DID improve, then there might be something to it.

I would be interested in reading about what on the bike training they did.. I tried to get the journal through my schools online library, but they don't have it.

http://www.ergo-log.com/strengthtraining4cyclists.html


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Strength Study
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:27 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 10:39 am
Posts: 2348
Nothing wrong with the sample size, very common for a lot of studies.

Some "issues" that I have with the study are things like the max wattage test (which with the values posted I am assuming is a maximal aerobic power test) where the non-strength group showed no change. This has alarms ringing. If you can't improve your MAP over 13/25 weeks then you're doing it wrong.

Next consideration was the non-reporting of weight gain/loss between the groups. W/kgs is a serious consideration. All very well putting on 20 watts but not at the cost of 5kgs of body mass.

Half squat - I don't even want to begin to want to know what that is. Imagine if they did proper squats.

More research!

_________________
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Strength Study
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:10 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:00 pm
Posts: 87
Considering it takes a very long time to reach genetic potential, would it make sense for someone just begining their training (say 2nd year) to incorporate some sort of strength training? I know that you say that strength isn't a limiter, but wouldnt a stronger athlete have a better base to build from?

Can fast twitch muscle fibers adapt slow twitch properties?

If you arent taking hormones/steroids it's pretty hard to gain a few kg's of lean mass.

Has anyone been able to do some kind of squat training during the season and become not sore from it? In the study they used 2 sets of 5 reps. Is that a light enough volume to not cause DOMS?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Strength Study
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:46 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 10:39 am
Posts: 2348
Answers in order:-

1) No. But there are good reasons still to do weight training. The principal of specificity reigns especially for those shorter on time available to train. Ie: if you have 10hours a week to train then you'll see better returns by cycling. If you have 20-40hrs a week free to train then a couple of hours a week on weights maybe a useful thing. When you are training ~20hrs a week on a non-load bearing activity then some form of body maintenance is a good idea, especially when there aren't too many races on.
During the off-season for example. Anyone heard of pros doing this, hmmm?


2) Not that we know of. However it has been theorised that there can be some adaptation between the various types of fast twitch muscle fibres (of which there are three) which may be of benefit for shortish efforts (up to ~ 20mins). Exactly how this happens (if it happens) is unclear (last time I checked) and these "endurance friendly" fibres are still inferior to slow twitch for prolonged efforts.

3) steroids has nothing to do with it. More to do with the types of weight training and calorie intake.

4) I do 2 days a week on a programme similar to the "Starting Strength" programme (google this). This is 3 sets of 5 reps through exercises such as squat, deadlift, bench, press etc. DOMs is variable from person to person. Generally, lift before you ride.

_________________
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Strength Study
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:58 pm 
Offline
Formerly known as wassertreter

Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:08 am
Posts: 2017
Location: Pedal Square
Tapeworm, so could you recommend any on-bike strength workout for those with 10-15 weekly hours on the bike, along the lines of microintervals possibly? Thanks.

_________________
Bikes: Raw Ti, 650b flatbar CX


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Strength Study
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:59 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:00 pm
Posts: 87
Nice,
Thanks for the reply Tapeworm.

I actually have Starting Streingth by Rippetoe, and I have read it. I used to do a lot of crossfit/olympic lifts and I enjoy that too. I also have 20+ hours a week on the bike :) Maybe I will see if i can fit in some squat sessions without getting DOMS. Last time I tried, I did 5x5 squats and i had to do zone 2 for the next 3 days because I had bad DOMS. I guess if i kept lifting then maybe my legs would get used to it and it wouldnt be an issue. I will definatly expiriment with this in the fall. I will have too much racing to do in the summer!

thanks,
Kyle


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Strength Study
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:25 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 10:39 am
Posts: 2348
wassertreter wrote:
Tapeworm, so could you recommend any on-bike strength workout for those with 10-15 weekly hours on the bike, along the lines of microintervals possibly? Thanks.


It depends on what you are trying to achieve with such workouts. General conditioning? Improved sprint etc?

_________________
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Strength Study
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:40 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 10:39 am
Posts: 2348
@kiserkm unless you are doing Texas Method or the Starr program for a very particular reason I would avoid the 5x5. This amount of volume can be crippling, especially for an endurance approach. If you are set on weight training, I generally would advocate the 3x5 3 times a week in the "off-season" or minimal racing, then 2 times a week in conjunction with some racing then dropped completely.

Apart from this study, the majority of research and the bulk of thought from some very experienced physiologists and coaches is that there is no correlation between aerobic performance and weight training. As mentioned there are still good reasons to do it, just don't expect it to have some magical affect of aerobic power output. Hence when into a race season and training I think it should be very scaled back if not dropped completely. Anecdotally, I don't know of any high level riders who lift in any way during race season, and know a few who do none at all.

_________________
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Strength Study
Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:40 am 


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Strength Study
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:50 am 
Offline
Formerly known as wassertreter

Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:08 am
Posts: 2017
Location: Pedal Square
Tapeworm wrote:
wassertreter wrote:
Tapeworm, so could you recommend any on-bike strength workout for those with 10-15 weekly hours on the bike, along the lines of microintervals possibly? Thanks.


It depends on what you are trying to achieve with such workouts. General conditioning? Improved sprint etc?

Just for the sake of interest, I'd be curious about both, and the difference.
In my training though, I'd use it to work on the sprint in the last period before a race. I try to do all my exercise outside on the bike, and the shorter the intervals, the more thinking, timekeeping etc, the less it helps to "free your head from work". So definitly not an all-season thing for me.

_________________
Bikes: Raw Ti, 650b flatbar CX


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: allenhuish, markc and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

It is currently Sun Dec 21, 2014 2:20 pm

All times are UTC + 1 hour




Advertising   –  FAQ   –  Contact   –  Convert   –  About

© Weight Weenies 2000-2013
hosted by starbike.com


How to get rid of these ads? Just register!


Powered by phpBB