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PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:25 pm 
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Posts: 156
Thanks for the comprehensive reply 'metal' :)

I think I am going to apply the combined advice and see what happens race wise. The last two races have seen me too eager to smash it off the front and I have ended up dead at the finish, missing out by 10 seconds,just blowing up when it gets anaerobic, both have been uphill finishes which don't really suit me.

Today's race I tried and nearly pulled off a solo attack close to the finish which was good, but a bit all or nothing. I think my form is good but I need to learn a bit more about where to 'burn my matches' if I want results. It really pisses me off when the race is really slow with a nervous bunch chasing down any move and just cruising until the last 500m, its a bit dull.

Anyway, I might have a weekend off next week :)


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:40 am 
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Yeah, thanks, Metal.

I do consider myself to be serious about my racing, but I sometimes wonder... Like, I rock up each week in the crit season (often twice-a-week), but I dips my lid to the guys who get up early and drive an hour every Sunday in Winter for a 9am race against only 15 blokes. Part of my aversion to doing this is driving so far with my bike in my car, coz it just feels weird. I figure if I drive 45mins to a Sat arvo race, just to compete against 20 guys for ~45km, then (obviously) drive 45min back, that's 90min that I could've been riding, and I've only ridden 45km!! :D ...

I reckon I'm spoiled, because I can ride only 10km to two of the main crit courses in Summer. It's such a luxury; it just feels like the race is a detour from my regular ride to the beach....... but that's all off topic.

I'd love to get a powermeter, and it's the next thing on my list, but I don't have the spare cash at the moment. Thanks for the buying tips.

I'm in Melbourne, so I get several crappy-weather-induced easy 'weeks' (usually 5 days; 6, tops) in the cold months, during which I'll just roll around for probably less than 150km (for the whole week), which may include 2 or 3 days off the bike. I go crazy riding indoors (for memory, I swapped my last Minoura Mag trainer for a cheap aluminium frame), so I usually don't ride on wet days in winter. I also have some easy weeks during the crit season when we get the hot spells in Jan and Feb.

Also during the season, if I have a killer Thursday night race (after a hard Tuesday night smash-fest), followed by some more grinding on the ride home, and my legs are fried, I'll often just roll around a freshen up over the following 4 days before the next Tuesday night ride. During this 'break' I might have a bit of a rev on Sat or Sun, but nothing too serious; just a top-up.


Last edited by User Name on Wed May 08, 2013 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:40 am 


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:06 am 
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One thing I didn't see or missed was what your job is and what your resting/max HR is in these sessions. Does your job require you to stand up or be on your feet? If so that is a huge factor.. a guy that works construction can't do the same thing as a guy that works at a desk and have the same results.

It's great counting watts and all but if your resting HR is starting to go up and up and you max is falling it's time adjust. One thing too if your race is only a crit on a race day you need to supplement that - do another one if you can or go out training after. Even in 1-2 crits unless you are working for another teammate and turning yourself inside out you aren't getting anywhere near the max effort you need if you are working for a serious goal.

Also too many riders don't go out for a recovery ride on race day. Unless you get home very late.. shower.. hop on your bike and go out for half an hour to an hour totally cruising in some casual duds.. ride down the pub.. ice cream shop ..treat yourself. It's good for the body, mind and soul :)

I think your Mondays and Fridays need to ease up (I pretty much mirrored those days). I think someone else said it but Saturdays (if not racing too) is the day to warm up the motor. Keep your rpms high mostly easy but with some good wind ups. Doesn't have to be much more than an hour. You'll be fresh and ready to go for Sunday. Saturday is your "unblock" day.

Again don't get locked into numbers. Races are made up of two main types of efforts (unless you race full Euro pro distances). Almost on the verge of puking.. and waiting to be almost on the verge of puking. Tuesdays and Thursdays are those days to let it all hang out.. if you aren't feeling up to the task.. your body is telling you to go easy which is fine. Wednesdays are basically pack pace ..calm before the storm so to speak.

Training isn't just about efforts it's also managing that nervous energy during races so trying to mimic that feeling during training is invaluable.. visualize your goals. Make sure to look at the race calendar and make mental notes to not be overtrained for your main goals. A friend of mine once said.. just make sure your're not tired on "game day" and all will be well. Great quote that I thought I should share here.

Most of all have fun. When it starts to feel like work.. take a break. Enjoy.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:22 am 
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Location: DC
I race almost every weekend during the year. Its a difficult situation as my team requires it and you never know how a race will turn out. This is my general strategy:

C races: Don't worry about being rested for the race. If you're a decent rider for your category you should have no issue finishing unless the course is absolutely awful for you i.e. you weigh 190lbs and it has long sustained climbs. In these races I make it known to teammates that I have no intent on winning and do a lot of work setting pace, bringing back moves, or getting into early moves. Otherwise I'd just sit in the pack and get almost nothing out of the race since you spend so much time coasting. Might as well ride solo.

C race schedule:
M: Completely off
T: Depending how I feel to be switched with Wed. Also depends on race phase. Usually a L5/L6 workout of some sort- lately I was doing 6x3 with 10min rest after and then 4x2. Closer to races I'll sub in for a hard group ride where I take lots of pulls, ride at the front, and ride as aggressive as I can without getting dropped.
W: Usually a SST/L4 ride. Lately I was doing 4-6x10 on a rolling hills climb adding bursts in every 2 min, but this is generally how a lot of my races finish or how breaks are established in them.
Th: L2 ride with some kind of L7 work thrown in. Last week I did 1x30min set of micros, then 4 sprints from 25mph for 15s aiming for max speeds. Generally how a lot of my races finish.
Fri: 1-1.5hrs z1. Just spin my legs out to and from work. Eat well.
Sat: ~70mile road race. Stay active in the race.
Sun: 3-4hr z2. If its a build week add in a group ride for an hour riding aggressively towards the front.

B race:
Generally cut some of my L2 time from my training rides to reduce TSS. Might not do as many group rides and might throw in a training crit and ride a bit smarter/easier. Tuesday often becomes a bit easier, I just can't do lots of L5/L6 work for long so I dial it back and do very race-like workouts. Think race winners i.e. attack hard, ride hard for 5-10min, sprint hard at the end for a set of 3 to 8 depending on the duration of the middle portion.

Also will cut out Thursday's workout and do a recovery ride or rest that day and do a 60-90 min opener ride on Friday. Sunday stays the same depending on how I feel, but probably drop the group rie.

A races completely change the game to something like this:

M: Off
T: Skills/sprint/L7 workout with a tempo/SST block on the end.
W: Training race or longer kitchen sink type workout
Th: Off or sping
Fri: 60 min ride with intense openers
Sat: Race
Sunday: Very easy L2 ride of about 3hrs with a few tempo intervals thrown in depending on how I feel.

That's generally it. I've found that even if I'm not racing I can only stomach 2-3 workouts at SST or above a week so races end up becoming a workout and if done right a good one at that. If they're crits and not road races I generally double up.

I agree with other posters that you need to be very specific above all else. I know specifically what my power profile weaknesses are, exactly how group rides in my area tend to go and what races they're similar to, and what I absolutely suck at doing and then I put it all together depending on what is coming up. In the end though, I think below the cat 1/2 level most riders just need to ride their damn bikes, get smarter at racing, and race more to get some skills/confidence. It took me until this year to have any confidence or ability to move around in the pack and its made racing more enjoyable, a better workout, and better for my teammates.

And honestly, at some point during the year I say screw workouts and end up doing group rides and training races a lot. Last year after doing that I tested my FTP and hit a season high. It wasn't precise or scientific nor would I recommend it as a very specific training plan, but I learned a hell of a lot about how to ride AROUND my weaknesses and picked up a lot from much more experienced riders. This is stuff you often can't train yourself to do, but I wouldn't do it year round either, but if you're a 4 trying to make it to the 3's or a 3 trying to make it to the 2's and you're that close anyways, the difference between upgrading and not upgrading often isn't a very elaborate training plan, but racing a bit smarter. I was sitting about 12th wheel coming into a sprint this weekend behind a rider that I know is terrible at sprinting and my finish was blown because I picked a bad wheel and didn't move up sooner (and he popped in the sprint, causing me to come to a sub 15 mph roll in my 52x17 up a hill).

Hope it helps, PM if you have any questions. I have 4 clients who race very regularly and with decent amounts of success, but its always a tough balance depending on the rider, the race, travel, work stress, and team dynamic.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:06 am 
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welkman wrote:
Thanks for the comprehensive reply 'metal' :)

I think I am going to apply the combined advice and see what happens race wise. The last two races have seen me too eager to smash it off the front and I have ended up dead at the finish, missing out by 10 seconds,just blowing up when it gets anaerobic, both have been uphill finishes which don't really suit me.

Today's race I tried and nearly pulled off a solo attack close to the finish which was good, but a bit all or nothing. I think my form is good but I need to learn a bit more about where to 'burn my matches' if I want results. It really pisses me off when the race is really slow with a nervous bunch chasing down any move and just cruising until the last 500m, its a bit dull.

Anyway, I might have a weekend off next week :)


Had a look at your proposed week versus your usual week plan. Adding in those vo2 max intervals will help immensely with solo attack race winning moves (in road races that is). But don't restrict yourself to 4mins efforts each week. Vary it from 2mins to 6mins (and percent above ftp appropriately).

If your feeling particularly good when you start your ride, consider starting each effort (or even just the first effort) with a hard (almost full out) 5-10 second sprint out of the saddle, followed by a 'form effort' when you sit down. i.e. You accelerate hard, then you sit down and hold form by slowly easing the effort down to vo2 max level intensity over the next 30 seconds or so. You should not be putting in a massive effort after the sprint. It should be just enough that your not using your upper body, and your just rolling your legs over smoothly but powerfully. It will build up your lactate capacity and power over time.

You may blow up the first few times you try this, but it is critical to practice so that you know how to put it into practice in a race situation without blowing up.

You will be presented with an opportunity in a race situation every so often when the pace has lulled and your a few k from the finish (after someones attack has been pulled back by a hard bunch of pulls from those still on the front). If your near the front but haven't contributed much to the pull back, jump hard, hold the form, then look and see if anyone followed your wheel. If your lucky, you might have 1 other rider with you, and they will work with you if you have a gap. Sometimes you will be alone, but if you have that gap, everyone else is going to be looking at each other, and you then decide if you can hold your form through to the finish. If the pack is on you already, sit up, and roll back down the pack a bit.

It all comes down to recognising the situation of worn out riders at the front, and then pulling off a hard enough 5-10s surprise sprint that the riders at the front hesitate. You will be surprised how often it works if the jump is hard enough.

If your not getting away, you need to improve your sprint. And the only way to do that is to practice sprinting. Once a week do a ride of about 25-30k, warmup for about 10k, then do three 250-300m sprints, with 3k rest in between. It will take 2-3 months of this once a week workout for you to be getting to a good sprint speed and snap. The reason I recommend only 3 sprints is that's usually the most amount of full out sprints you have to perform during a road race or crit race (for club racing that is). But it does take a weekly commitment to get better.

You can also add sprints into pretty much any ride. I find it fun on endurance rides with a good bunch to have the 'sprint to the 60 signs' competition. Though now alot of them are 50 signs in aus. Always adds about 5 sprints into the ride (which are 100k+ endurance rides).

GL,
metal


Last edited by metal on Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:57 am 
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User Name wrote:
snip good info


Looks like you could benefit from a more structured program, but I know that it also isn't required if your smart about your training :)

I also have the feeling your more interested in the warm crits than the freezing cold road races :P I'm the same actually :)

I rarely get to race the city crits, but I do know that the sprints aren't often won by sprinting from 200 to 300+ out like many road race sprints (club level). The only way to win them is to follow wheels to the front, and be first wheel with 100 to go.

I might be giving away trade secrets with this post, but anyway... :P

To train for this, you need to improve your jump. And to do this, you need a small/med tractor tyre, some 3/4 inch or so rope, a mate, and preferably some pedals you can crank up the resistance on to a very high level. Proper track pedals with a strap or two helps if you have the cash :)

Drill a big hole in the tyre on the tread, thread the rope thru, tie a knot. Should be about 5-10 metres to a 50cm loop which is hooked over your seat and seatpost.

Flat ground or near flat ground is needed. Your mate holds you while you clip/strap yourself in. Starting in a 60-70 inch gear (go up or down in gear ratio depending on the rpm you get), you then punch out a standing start maximum effort for 10seconds at 80-90rpm all out of the seat. You shouldn't need to change gear, the tyre will restrict the rpm to an almost constant rpm within 2 seconds of your start.

Do a U turn letting the rope go a little slack, i.e. sitdown and roll around til facing the other way. Then power out another 10sec effort out of the seat to get back to your mate. He catches you, you unclip/unstrap, then you pull the loop off over the seat, and go for a few minute rolldown, while your mate does a small rollup.

Swap turns, getting in 5+ tyre pulls each. You should get it all done in 1 hour with warmup and warmdown.

This training is perfect for the snap you need to get a fast wheel that has led out a little too far from the finish, and then snap past the leader in the last 50-100 metres :)

Cheers,
metal

p.s. oh yeah, I use to do this training on a reynolds 531 frame back 'in the day'. I don't know how well it will work with carbon seat posts, but i'd expect it would be completely fine. Just remember to check your seatpost after. Let me know if breaks it...


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:08 pm 
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welkman wrote:
...and I have ended up dead at the finish, missing out by 10 seconds,just blowing up when it gets anaerobic, both have been uphill finishes which don't really suit me.


That's probably not a real issue of anaerobic capacity, rather that you either are pushing too hard too soon (timing and race-craft) or lack the aerobic base to deal with the surge.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:21 pm 
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@ metal - that tyre training is... interesting.

FWIW, sprint power can be trained by a variety of means which don't involve tying things to the bike. In road racing however 1 - 10sec sprint power is largely irrelevant, the longer duration power will have more bearing on a sprint finish, if that's your thing.

To improve sprint power it is better to work it when aerobic volume is low and relatively rested. The ideal behind sprint training to more effectively coordinate the firing of the motor-neurons in all the muscle fibres, hence is best when things aren't "pre-fatigued". If done properly it can also be hard on the CNS, best to have an easy or rest day after.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:36 pm 
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One thing you have to remember is that in most road races with a REAL sprint finish you're never sprinting from 200w in an easy gear. So far this year the slowest sprint in one of my races started at 28 mph. In a 1/2/3 crit a few weekends ago we were going 40 at 500m to go (after a false downhill).

You need to think of how you'd actually be riding when you start your sprint in a race. I laugh when I hear dudes brag about their crazy wattage when they start rested on a training ride, not after riding at 400w or 30mph for a full minute beforehand.

Some variations I find helpful:

Rolling hill sprints: Ride HARD on the downhill to get your speed up, and then sprint up the up portion. Best if the rollers are very close together. Helps get your speed and leg speed up really high and adds resistance to the actual sprint itself.

Sprints from a solo effort: Simple, just ride 30-60s at whatever the average finishing speed of your race is and sprint for the last 15-20s.

Sprint strength work: Got his one from Allen/Coggan webinar. Pick a very large gear, like a 53x14, and start from a 10mph roll. Sprint out of the saddle as hard as you can, stop when cadence is above 90rpm. This will increase fiber recruitment.

Sprint cadence work: So many road racers sprint with way too low of a cadence. Ever seen Cav grind it out at 90 RPM? Or Greipel? Last year my coach sent me a Speedweek-winning power file from an NRC pro- his average cadence for the last lap was 120 RPM and he started the sprint at 130 RPM with a 170RPM peak. Not everyone is capable of this, but this racer won over a dozen NRC crits last year and absolutely no one could past him once he punched it. His top speed and wattage were not crazy, but he could open that gap up ever so slightly and hold it. Work on being able to open up that gap. I like to use little ring sprints for 3 reps trying to hit max cadence, then 3 reps in a 53x21 or something easier in the big ring with the same goal, and lastly 3 all out reps in a normal gear. My best ever sprint wattage was sadly hit in a 39x16 last year, a gear I will likely never actually use in a race, but it helped me to remember coming into a sprint that I should be in a gear that felt like it had almost no resistance so I could spin it out and get a jump on whoever I was following. Still perfecting this in practice in races, but its helped a lot.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:14 pm 
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Love hearing the training methods everyone uses. :)

The variety of what can be done is always interesting to read and analyse.

@Tapeworm. The reason for the tyre is so that the rpm reaches a constant 90 or so. It's a full on maximum effort just to maintain that rpm. I think only a windtrainer with a super massive gear could come close to the feeling.

The reason for the constant rpm is so that no gear changes need to take place, so all power from the upper body goes into the full pedal stroke, both down, and more importantly up... :)

I think it's the up stroke that gets trained by this kind of training that sees the most benefit in improving snap in the legs.

The other thing it teaches is form, both balance and technique. A good deal of the effort from the upper body and arms goes into keeping the bike going in a straight line, while the other part is in transmitting power down the body and into the legs.

It seems counter intuitive to the upper body and arms initially, but once you have done tyre pulls a bunch of times you find out how much extra power you can get into your legs from your perfecting your arms and upper body form.

Oh yeah, I do agree that full sprints should also be practiced in an low aerobic workout. In summer, I do a 25k ride around a rolling hills circuit with 3 sprints in it of 250-300m, 3k apart. By the 3rd sprint, i'm pretty smashed.

@KWalker Yep, some sprints are from a pack moving at a very high tempo, and so being able to do micro sprints to stay near the front or on a certain wheel, and then having the snap is the thing that wins race. It's not something that can be fully simulated in training (i.e. the micro sprints can't be replicated easily). But I reckon your workouts would definitely help.

It really depends on where you race though. In the country in aus, you might only be racing against 5 other guys in a club race and a proper 250metre sprint effort is what wins races. While in the city, the micro sprinting/snap sprint is what wins races with big fast moving packs. It varies alot based racing level too.

Cheers,
metal

Oh, thought I would add this for some info for thought.

The top track sprinters (world cup/olympic) all sprint at 140-150 rpm every single sprint. Usually towards the bottom of 140rpm, but still all within that range.

The top individual pursuiters (4k/3k) all sit on 120rpm, with the ones that win settling into 120rpm, then holding it, or slightly increasing to 125 by the end.

If you want to know how I came about this info, well, I taped the world track champs when they were on here in oz, and played back the coverage frame by frame counting pedal revs per lap, and using their laptimes to calc rpm.

Also got gear ratios by using a slightly over 250m distance with their rpm :o But that's for another post :)


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:31 pm 
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Some great sprint drills from KWalker, I'd add another variation, my old coach called them "torque sprints" - similar to the above, start in an "easy" gear 39/19 or 18, come to a near dead stop, then from the seated position start the sprint for 20 seconds at the end of which you should be spinning crazy fast. The peak power from the stomp should be very comparable to "normal" sprint peak power (~1-2sec values).

This drill is more about coordination of generating high power at high cadence rather than a true standing start which, outside of track, has little road racing application.

And whilst I say that sprinting shouldn't be done pre-fatigued that is in the sense of trying to develop more power. The application in race requires different training again, as KWalker mentions. 1200 watts in training may not always come to bear in a race. Getting motopaced at speed and then trying to sprint around is great for this... if it can be done safely.

@metal - that must have taken some time on slow-mo to count those RPM. Personally, I review power files, a tad easier ;)

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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 6:16 pm 
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Forgot about the little ring seated sprints.

Another tough drill:

Workout is called 12 sprints- its just that. All sprints from around 20mph

Seated:
53x16
53x15
53x14
53x13
53x12
53x11
Standing
53x11
53x12
53x13
53x14
53x15
53x16

Sprint until your cadence is above 110 RPM. This workout is pretty damn hard so I don't recommend it if you have a really big race coming up 2-3 days after.

Another one I do that is crit specific:

15sec seated sprint at 200%-300% of FTP
Ride at 400w for 1min with a high cadence, in the drops
Max sprint for 200m, or around 10-15s. Rest 5 min, repeat 5-8 times.

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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 7:26 pm 
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Wow KWalker at this moment I really don't like you because that last workout is just the sort of thing I can't resist trying. Somewhere in the middle of trying to maintain 400w after 15s around 900 I will come up with a creative way to repay you in kind. May not be in the first or second interval but I am sure by the 5th-8th something truly evil will come to me.


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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 7:31 pm 
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They do suck and 400w is sorta arbitrary, but it mimics coming out of a corner hard, driving the pace, and sprinting for the win. When you actually do it you'll at least be familiar with the sensations.

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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 6:49 pm 
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metal wrote:
User Name wrote:
snip good info


I also have the feeling your more interested in the warm crits than the freezing cold road races :P I'm the same actually :)
I might be giving away trade secrets with this post, but anyway... :P

To train for sprints, you need to improve your jump. And to do this, you need to..........
Hmm, i see., Thanks. I'll be honest, I'm not gunna do the slingshot thing. :D

I'd love to do some road racing in the cooler months, but they're so freakin far. :D I often have other stuff to do on weekends, so it's tough to justify driving an hour out and back for a race, when I can go to Beach Rd and find a group smash-fest to get mixed up with.....but i suppose that's not gunna get my name on any results....still fun, but, and good training.


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Posted: Wed May 08, 2013 6:49 pm 


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