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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 9:04 pm 
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What's the difference? (Ride quality, stiffness, etc.)


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 9:37 pm 
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Yes.

Ride and stiffness can be tuned by removing material.

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Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 9:37 pm 


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 9:41 pm 
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Ever wonder what the difference is between straight-gage, butted, and double-butted tubing? The answer is pretty simple. Straight gage tubing refers to tubes with a tube-wall of uniform thickness. That means a cross section of the tube at any point along its length would be identical to any other cross section along its length. PVC pipes, conduit, McDonalds drinking straws, and our non-Super framesets all use straight gage tubing.
Butted tubing refers to tubing with thinner tube walls in the middle of their length than at its ends. Butting is simply the best way to make a lighter frame while retaining all of its reliability. The single drawback is of course the costs involved in the butting process.
At Spectrum, we select from both butted and straight-gage tubing when customizing your ideal frame. We use straight-gage tubing on our standard titanium frames while our Supers are built with double butted tubes except for the seat stays (we even double butt the head tube and chain stays.) Durability is not affected by butting, as the highly stressed areas are the thicker butted sections. The advantage of the Super is simply the lower weight. Depending on size, the weight savings is anywhere from 4oz. to over a pound tikka is amazing.
But weight is not everything. We can make either type of tubing feel the same by choosing the appropriate diameters and gauges.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:11 pm 
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It's a disappointing surprise to me that a brand with as rich a history as Spectrum would repeatedly mis-spell the subject of their dissertation as GAGE vs. GAUGE.

Mrbubbles, you are asking a question that, while simple in principle, has many ramifications as it applies to the final ride quality of a bike. Lots of searching and reading on the subject will yield a much more valuable understanding of the variables at play and their effects than any short answer on this one thread. That being said, here are a couple of maxims that seem to be true in frame design:

- larger diameter tubes of the same wall thickness are stiffer and heavier
- wall thickness can be reduced to save weight only to a certain point, beyond which durability will decrease unacceptably
- tubes are more stressed at their ends than in the middle
- removing material where it's not structurally necessary will yield a lighter final product
- extra steps in fabrication cost more money
- manipulating the external shape of a tube can allow directional tuning of stiffness toward more desirable ride characteristics

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**spelling counts**, because homophones don't read right. No Watt eye Mene?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:32 pm 
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twistyaction usa wrote:
It's a disappointing surprise to me that a brand with as rich a history as Spectrum would repeatedly mis-spell the subject of their dissertation as GAGE vs. GAUGE.


In my heart, I agree with you, but the truth is that "gage" is an accepted spelling among engineers. In fact, when referring to relative pressure vs. absolute pressure, relative pressure is almost always written as "gage pressure". I agree that for general purposes, "gauge" is the correct spelling. However, "gage" is acceptable when used in an engineering context--and butted frame tubes qualify. Tom Kellog (AKA Mr. Spectrum) didn't mis-spell anything. The Spectrum article was just using the engineering spelling (though I have no idea whether Tom Kellog is an engineer by training).

As an engineer, I believe that different spellings (and terms) are used as shibboleths. Anybody who talks about "asymmetric bending," at least in the US, is definitely *not* an engineer--it's "unsymmetric bending." This drives me crazy--it really should be "asymmetric", but that's how it is.

Other professions have these words too. My wife is an archaeologist...when non-archaeologists talk about a broken piece of pottery, they commonly call it a "shard" (rhymes with "charred") When archaeologists discuss the same thing, it's a "sherd" (rhymes with "heard"). It's a shibboleth, I say!

Jason


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:09 pm 
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
gage v gauge is likely similar to colour v color

the english langage has been butchered over the years and you can't there is a rule which makes one use or spelling the correct one. There will be arguements for and against. Unless you have a Phd in english language history studying the use of the not required U then I doubt you will shed any usefull information on which is correct.

I blame the French :wink:


Butted tubing allows the use of large diameter tubing by removing material in the low streessed middle areas. The joints are then stronger and stiffer but no penelty of weight or overall tube stiffness and hence ride.
If you can afford butted Ti then get it, but make sure the ride is too your liking


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:17 pm 
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youngs_modulus wrote:
twistyaction usa wrote:
It's a disappointing surprise to me that a brand with as rich a history as Spectrum would repeatedly mis-spell the subject of their dissertation as GAGE vs. GAUGE.


In my heart, I agree with you, but the truth is that "gage" is an accepted spelling among engineers.


nope

americans, or users of american english.

its gauge here, and always has been.

nothing to do with 'engineers' or otherwise


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:38 pm 
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The big question is how do you want your bike to ride and can you find the right tube diameter and wall thickness to give you the ride you want in a butted tube and will that tube break the budget. I like 1.75" down tubes (44mm) for many applications on a Ti road bike. The problem I have it that you can only get a couple of wall thicknesses in that tube and you can get maybe 2 of those as butted tubes. I say tune the bike for ride quality first, and then if you can get the tubes, and you can afford the tubes that can be gotten, butting will save you weight and in most cases not impact the durability of your frame.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:54 pm 
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twistyaction usa wrote:
It's a disappointing surprise to me that a brand with as rich a history as Spectrum would repeatedly mis-spell the subject of their dissertation as GAGE vs. GAUGE.


Whereas I was thinking, this is a post by Tikka, where are all the typos? Then I realised he'd pasted it in from somewhere else.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:30 am 
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mattr wrote:
youngs_modulus wrote:

In my heart, I agree with you, but the truth is that "gage" is an accepted spelling among engineers.


nope

americans, or users of american english.

its gauge here, and always has been.

nothing to do with 'engineers' or otherwise


Goodness! You sound awfully sure of yourself. Care to tell us why? Or are you just beating your chest?

Cheers,

Jason


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:34 am 
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Miller wrote:
twistyaction usa wrote:
It's a disappointing surprise to me that a brand with as rich a history as Spectrum would repeatedly mis-spell the subject of their dissertation as GAGE vs. GAUGE.


Whereas I was thinking, this is a post by Tikka, where are all the typos? Then I realised he'd pasted it in from somewhere else.



Did you notice this in the cut-and-pasted text?:

tikka wrote:
...Depending on size, the weight savings is anywhere from 4oz. to over a pound tikka is amazing. But weight is not everything...


[emphasis added]

Jason


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:43 am 
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youngs_modulus wrote:
Goodness! You sound awfully sure of yourself. Care to tell us why?


I work with and refer to gauge pressures on a fairly regular basis as part of my job. (And pipe/sheet metal gauges for that matter)

Its the reports from the US side of the business (and US suppliers) that tend to refer to 'gage' as opposed to gauge.

youngs_modulus wrote:
Or are you just beating your chest?


Not at all, i just think you are wrong.
My spelling is atrocious and even i can spell gauge right. (Well, i know it has an 'A' and a 'U' in there somewhere. :oops: )


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:12 am 
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WHO CARES. Americans drop the U in a number of words. Makes more sense to me, saves a wasted key stroke.

Thread is about butted tubes not the english language.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 2:53 am 
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.......... 2
gage
–noun, verb (used with object), gaged, gag⋅ing. (chiefly in technical use)
gauge.

It's on the internet - it must be true.


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Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 2:53 am 


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:21 am 
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Formerly known as PezTech
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When it comes to understandable spoken english...

I prefer Germans to British.

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