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 Post subject: canti vs disc
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:20 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:50 pm
Posts: 1047
Location: FIN
What would you choose : A. Canti carbon frameset ( 1700g frame + fork ) or B. Alu frame + full carbon fork and disc brakes , but weight of set is 2200g.

500 g framest penalty + disc brakes weight penalty... overall I assume around 1100g...

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Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company.
Mark Twain


I can be wrong, and have plenty of examples for that ;)


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 Post subject: Re: canti vs disc
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:26 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:15 pm
Posts: 824
cantis for the simpler set up

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Colnago C-59 (Dura Ace)
Firefly(Ultegra)
Trek 5200(ultegra)


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 Post subject: Re: canti vs disc
Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:26 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: canti vs disc
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:03 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:30 pm
Posts: 15
I've been on a Steel Canti 1x10 all season (17.5lbs). I finally got my cat3 upgrade after a few seasons of puttering around in the 4's and beat my rivals.
I popped a tubular on a preride 30min before call up so I had to ride my pit bike (my GF's Trek Crocket 6 or something). It was noticeably heavier going up the stairs and over the barriers, which I did not care for. It was a pretty muddy race and I ended up burning through both sets of pads by the end of it.

Weight and eating through the pads when I needed them most, have pretty well convinced me not to go disc. Not to mention the headache of replacing all my wheels etc.


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 Post subject: Re: canti vs disc
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:11 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:30 pm
Posts: 305
Are you racing cross? I still think for pure cross racing there is no disadvantage to canti bikes. Look at the guys finishing at the front of UCI fields that aren't on sponsor bikes, they are still on cantis.


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 Post subject: Re: canti vs disc
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:03 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:25 am
Posts: 4966
Location: Canada
I love cantilever brakes for 'cross, but the truth is that disc brakes work way better.


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 Post subject: Re: canti vs disc
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:50 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:50 pm
Posts: 1047
Location: FIN
Do they ?

It's not so easy and simple. Weight vs noise vs price vs serviceablity vs ugly levers vs rattling hose in frame vs heat& fading vs bending rotor vs chainline vs pads contamination....

Personally I find ONE real advantage of disc brakes in cross : taking braking surface off of the rim. It saves wheels for longer. Rest is very disputable.

My wonder is is it worth 1000g "penalty" ( in this particular situation ) .

_________________
Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company.
Mark Twain


I can be wrong, and have plenty of examples for that ;)


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 Post subject: Re: canti vs disc
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:26 pm 
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Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:07 pm
Posts: 1322
Location: The Lone Star State
I had the same choice and opted for the aluminum disc frame. I'll acknowledge that SRAM's hydro brake levers are ugly, but the Shimano levers are very close in appearance to their non-hydro brethren, and very comfortable to hold while riding (particularly while climbing, they give you something sizable to hold onto). Disc frames are heavier, but I haven't found it to be an encumbrance while racing (my fat ass, on the other hand... now that's an issue).

Regarding pad life, I would recommend you look at getting sintered pads, if going with the disc brake frame. Organic pads won't last a complete race in muddy conditions, but sintered pads will last throughout the season (I'm actually still racing last year's pads, this year, and they still have plenty of life in them). If you race in muddy conditions, the ability to brake consistently, every time, regardless of conditions, is very helpful.

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Madone 9 https://goo.gl/7UwZpV
Crockett https://goo.gl/f5PdCN
Madone 5 https://goo.gl/cMdyFo

Madone 4, Cobia. I own a lot of Treks.


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 Post subject: Re: canti vs disc
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:13 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:28 pm
Posts: 340
Location: The Netherlands
morganb wrote:
Are you racing cross? I still think for pure cross racing there is no disadvantage to canti bikes. Look at the guys finishing at the front of UCI fields that aren't on sponsor bikes, they are still on cantis.


Really, where? I can't recall the last televised cross race that showed anyone on canti's riding at the front.

Personally, I would wait untill you can get the weight penalty under 500-600 gram, then make the switch. I haven't missed my cantilever bikes for a second (and actually just sold my 7.5 kg cantilever backup bike to get a backup disc bike).

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Chains to the right!


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 Post subject: Re: canti vs disc
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:47 am 
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Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 6:43 pm
Posts: 3304
We watched two full days of racing (Soudal then Super Prestige) a few weeks ago, probably 250 riders in total over the two days (lots of the same people) and ~500 bikes. Saw less than 30 canti braked bikes. Mostly in the Junior ranks. 1 or 2 in elite men (and they were back markers and didn't notice them on may laps, so may have been second or spare bikes) maybe half a dozen in the womens race.

None of the top 20 or so in any race, except the juniors, that i can recall had cantis.


Last edited by mattr on Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: canti vs disc
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:39 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:30 pm
Posts: 305
I'm talking US domestic races, Europe I imagine is different.


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 Post subject: Re: canti vs disc
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:25 pm 
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Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:07 pm
Posts: 1322
Location: The Lone Star State
You'd be hard pressed to find more than a handful of cantilever brake bikes, here in the Houston area, and the conditions this year have been largely dry (with the exception of one race). Of the Cat 1/2/3 men, I can only think of one guy running cantilever, and of the 1/2/3 women, the fastest racer uses cantilevers, but no one else in the field is, if memory serves.

Regarding what pros run, I think that's largely irrelevant, today. They run what their manufacturers supply them with, and most manufacturers this year only have disc-brake bikes, so they run that. The interesting question is when riders have the choice between the two frames, like Sven Nys had, in his last season, and what they choose. If memory serves, Nys had the option of running a cantilever or disc brake Boone, and went for the disc brake version.

_________________
Madone 9 https://goo.gl/7UwZpV
Crockett https://goo.gl/f5PdCN
Madone 5 https://goo.gl/cMdyFo

Madone 4, Cobia. I own a lot of Treks.


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 Post subject: Re: canti vs disc
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:47 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:50 pm
Posts: 1047
Location: FIN
FIJIGabe wrote:
The interesting question is when riders have the choice between the two frames, like Sven Nys had, in his last season, and what they choose. If memory serves, Nys had the option of running a cantilever or disc brake Boone, and went for the disc brake version.


Nope. It was canti. And still is. "JPow" also this year rides canti being not sponsored by frame brand.

But if someones care, look at events like EKZ Crosstour ; more canti bikes than discs.

Who rides what is irrelevant for me. I don't give a damn. They can even race on Bromptons ; Pro's are payed or forced to use what they use. Privateers rely on availability, and this is nowadays almost disc-only. So-called "future proof" is more than disputable consdering thru axle standards. Very few manufacturers offer same frame with disc AND canti option. Not even one from "mainstream" brands...sorry , Ridley does. Is it really only Ridley ?


My main question is do disc brake solve canti issues ? If yes, is it worth weight penalty ? Does it creates "new problems" ? .

For now it looks for me 1.maybe, it depends 2. no, difference is still to big for my taste /700g+ currently / 3. yes, a lot of it . Overall conclusion is rather in favor of canti right now.

_________________
Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company.
Mark Twain


I can be wrong, and have plenty of examples for that ;)


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 Post subject: Re: canti vs disc
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:17 am 
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Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:27 am
Posts: 71
Last year I would have said go with canti but after switching to hydro disc this season no way would I go back to canti. The biggest advantage is braking power and on rough or very cold courses it is so much easier to brake because they are so smooth and need almost no effort to pull the lever.


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 Post subject: Re: canti vs disc
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:07 am 
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Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 6:43 pm
Posts: 3304
stormur wrote:
FIJIGabe wrote:
The interesting question is when riders have the choice between the two frames, like Sven Nys had, in his last season, and what they choose. If memory serves, Nys had the option of running a cantilever or disc brake Boone, and went for the disc brake version.


Nope. It was canti. And still is. "JPow" also this year rides canti being not sponsored by frame brand.
Um, the pictures i saw from the pits through his last season showed both disc and canti versions, depending on race/conditions.

Some races he used both, just to confuse everything.


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 Post subject: Re: canti vs disc
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:40 am 
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Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:50 pm
Posts: 1047
Location: FIN
Sven Nys always denied to ride disc braked bike, however had to because of his contract with Trek. If you will see him now, he's on canti. It was even press conference with Nys and Compton, when he said "canti 4me" and Compton tried to convince him to discs. Should be somewhere on the web.

Same Nys "privately" liked max rim depth of 35mm, but rode 50's as well. Why ? Dura Ace logo size ;) Mythical "cutting" mud by deeper profile is still.... mythical :) Truth is its ability to carry more mud than shallow rims .

Please, understand me good ; I'm not disc brakes "hater", not at all. Just can't see it as solution for all the problems. Is it overall better system than canti. I believe yes, but with own issues, not known before. It's not such "wonder kid" as many want to see it.

I have 5 cross frames at home now ( BMC, Pinarello, Ridley, Wilier and Look ). BMC I do not consider as "cross" bike due to its geometry ( to steep front ) , but it's almost perfect "allroad" frame. Agil, responsive and surprisingly comfy for such stiff frame ( Im 85kg low cadence guy easily going beyond 1200W on uphill/ accelerations ( how long I can keep it is 2nd thing ;) ). Will keep it as road bike.

Ridley is bit to small for me, and way to heavy ( alu frame ) , but I liked its temper ( had 2-3y ago same frame but canti ). Has to go.

Wilier... Only canti frame. Basically is Guerciotti, but rebranded to Wilier CentoUno cross. Could be found also while ago as Zannata / wasn't 1st M.van der Poel Worlds won on this frame (?) / . I LOVE that frame. Hand made in Italy, BSA bb, perfect geometry, fast, responsive and unbelivably comfy.

Pinarello. Fabulous piece of work. But not "my thing". Feels similar to Specialized Crux.

Look; recent aquisition. Now idea yet how it rides, but I like how it looks and how it's made : external cables, BSA bb, ISO brake mount, zero issues with to tight tolerances. Made quality is impeccable. Possibly ( 95%) Look will stay.

Excluding BMC 1 frame will stay, rest have to go to new owners. For now the battle is basically only between Wilier (canti) and Look (disc ).

_________________
Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company.
Mark Twain


I can be wrong, and have plenty of examples for that ;)


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 Post subject: Re: canti vs disc
Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:40 am 


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