Cyclocross tubulars : type- patterns - use - price

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LouisN
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by LouisN

I'm out looking for cyclocross tubular tires.
There are so many different tire patterns/surfaces, and brands, I'm a little lost here.

They will be used on light alloy wheels as race wheels for cyclocross events.
Most of the events go on 50% grass (soft or hard and more or less plowed, depending on race conditions and "humidity" ;) , )35% dirt , and the rest is gravel, small sandbanks, and tarmac.

I'm used to road tubular "dogmas" ( ;) ) but don't know anything about CX ones...

Brands: Some brands are much cheaper than others, Hutchinson and Tufo, Schwalbe, and Vittoria have some cheap options.
Are they worhty ? Are FMB's, Dugast and CHallenge really that better performance wise ?

Wich kind of thread/knob pattern is considered "all round" for my kind of use ? Generally I see "Mud" tubs are cheaper, probably because they aren't as popular ?

Thanks for the help :beerchug:

Louis :)

stormur
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by stormur

Dugast & FMB are typical "race" tires. Lifespan is extremely short in comparison to more "mortal" products.

About thread : as a rule softer it goes, thread increase in size and decrease in density.
Basically ( to make thing simple ) are 3 types of thread : file/ diamond , grifo and mud. And all variations of it, depending on manufacturer, patents...

Most universal is "grifo". All rounder and for bit softer roads than typical hard/ icy . On hard gravel, short grass, frozen road goes file thread with smaller or bigger side blocks. For really soft mud there's other thread.

IMO :
Exceptions : Hutchinson Black Mamba is betetr IMO than any file thread. Used on London Olympics by few top riders in XC race ( thread delivered by H & glued to cotton/silk casing ) .

"Grifo" is the tyre if it's your only tire. Shines in mixed conditions, but in real life has no particular strenghts nor weaknesses.

Mud tires are significally heavier and slower in any other condition than real extremes. Bigger knobs won't give you better grip in not designed for it conditions. Rather opposite. It's thing designed to give best grip in very soft surface on extremely low pressures.

From "hand made" Challenge has opinion of best mileage. I prefer Vittoria. Consistent quality, about same price. And bit better wear factor.

"tufo" type : tufo, clement... Not bad idea, but require VERY high pressures in comparison to "real" tubulars. Again exception : Dugast start to make tubes glued to casing, but it's still cotton / silk- NOT vulcanized rubber and it's still glued thread.

Good idea is yo use sidewall protection ( aquasure ) - natural raw casing soak water/ humidity like crazy.
Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company.
Mark Twain


I can be wrong, and have plenty of examples for that ;)

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LouisN
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by LouisN

Hey that's great , thanks Stormur :beerchug:


I have 4 sets of soft pack and mud conditions clincher tires ( Michelin Mud 30 mm , Vittoria XM (32 ?) mm, Schwalbe Racing Ralph 33 mm and Continental Cyclocross race 35 mm), so
I think I'll try the Black mambas for the tubular wheels.

Louis :)

Tamu8104
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by Tamu8104

I also really like the Grifo as an all around tire. I've spent a lot of time on Challenge tires and they are good but I prefer Dugast. In my experience they've been pretty durable as well. I've trained on them as well as raced on them.
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stormur
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by stormur

Conti Cyclocross Race should be avoided like a plague. It has phenomenal grip on light snowy/ icy conditions, but it flat like crazy. 3-5 flats on 5km is not very uncommon. Plus it wears off just from being mounted on rims ;) . Seriously.

Cyclocross Speed is different story : cheap ( often OEM ) , fast, great grip on hard surfaces, quiet supple. For the money it's no-brainer. But it's clincher only . And it's light.

Michelin Mud ( black ) is rather allrounder than typical deep-wet tire. Something like grifo for bit tougher conditions. Be carefull on ice with it. ZERO grip. Slower than typical grifo thread .
Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company.
Mark Twain


I can be wrong, and have plenty of examples for that ;)

jmaccyd
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by jmaccyd

Specialised Terra is advertised as a mud tyre but I have used it in all conditions and it only really struggles when it gets super muddy. Goes on well, has a protected side wall for longer life and can be picked up at bargain prices. However, if in doubt and you have one set of wheels I would say ALWAYS get a mud tyre unless you live in a very dry region. A mud tyre gives you more grip when it is dry and you loose a bit of straight line speed. However, when it gets muddy you really do want every bit of grip you can get unless you are a MTB/handling God, Challenge Limus is good and the Dughast/FMB stuff is by reputation brilliant as well if pricey. I never warmed to Grifos, the grip seemed to run out quickly when things got a bit muddy, but that could have been me!

stormur
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by stormur

High knob tires won't give you better grip on hard surface. Rather opposite. Just from my -painfull- experience ;) And will be significally slower.

Grifo is exactly tire for situation "1 tire only" - gives decent performance in any conditions. On muddy/ wet soil it will rather skid than drift, opposite to mud tire on hardpack which will slip off without any warning giving you OTF .

I've heard good reviews on Specialized CX tires having good puncture protection, but never used them. I prefer European stuff. It's OUR sport :)

I've seen some interview with top 10 pro, and he said that they use as a rule as small thread as possible. 5-7cm of snow covering ice was "not enough material" for Rhino, so they went on Grifo :shock: I tried once Michelin MUD tubeless on quiet low pressure on hard/ icy roads... it cost me bit of pride, pain and left lever... .
Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company.
Mark Twain


I can be wrong, and have plenty of examples for that ;)

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LouisN
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by LouisN

Hey thanks for the comments guys !
That makes me think of how different our climates can be.
Here cyclocross season is from september to december. That's it.
After that, we get between 2 and 4 meters of snow and the average temperature is - 15-20 °C, till march. :x

So, from what I heard, there's an occasional snowy CX race in the fall, but the season ends before the ground freezes.

In winter, we see more and more fatbikes amateurs now...

Louis :)

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rasmussloth
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by rasmussloth

I'd say go for mud tubs.

It's in the wet that tubs are much better than clinchers.

And mud tubs will be ok in mixed conditions too. You wont feel that they are 1 % slower.

commendatore
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by commendatore

A mud tire always works. It won't be the fastest in dry conditions, but not nearly as catastrophic as a grifo in real mud. If you're only going to have one, the baby limus isn't a bad choice.

stormur
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by stormur

1st thing : go with mud tires ( like Rhino ) to partially frozen and icy hardpack, and -when you leave hospital- write your impressions, and what made you change your mind :mrgreen: it's so obvious knowledge and practice that is ridiculous I have to explain it :shock:

2nd thing : Grifo is not "catastrophic" in really soaked wet terrain. It's not best performer in it , but it wasn't designed for. Much worse is to have "mud" tires in hardpack than "not enough mud" tires in soaked soil.

1st rule for CX is tire choice over all.

3rd thing : YT is full of CX races ; look at course and tires ( they're always shown at the start ) - you'll get your answer ;)

4th thing : Limus is slower than grifo on hard surfaces. harder it gets, limus gets slower. On forest paths, tarmac difference is more than very noticeable. It's not 1 %. more than 10%. Different thread, different rubber.

Good news is : you can ride CX on 1 set of tires, and Grifo is undisputable best allrounder. Bad news is that is not best idea to do CX on 1 tire set . That's why most amatuers ride clinchers/ tubeless cause can't afford 3 sets of tubulars ( to not mention pit wheels in case of racing ).

Naturally you are allowed to not agree, but then look at "3rd thing".
Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company.
Mark Twain


I can be wrong, and have plenty of examples for that ;)

timoh
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by timoh

I about to move my road tubular wheelset to my CX bike that I use mostly as early/late season bike. I use the bike mostly on pavement and gravel roads. Sometimes in grass and trails but practically never in mud. Should I consider CX tubulars or use instead wide road tubulars like schwalbe s-one evo in 30mm?

Currently I use clincher wheelset in the bike with Continental Cyclocross Speed tyres.

There seems to be another thread (http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=138781) about gravel/road tyres also.

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LouisN
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by LouisN

ANy ideas why the Schwalbe Racing Ralph HT tubular sells for dirt cheap online ?

Old model ? OK, there is a bad review in 2010' Bikeradar, but still ... ?

Louis :)

drider85
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by drider85

Really low TPI I think.

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rasmussloth
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by rasmussloth

I think Schwalbe is working on a new line of tyres (maybe also tubulars)

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