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 Post subject: Spokes for CX wheels.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 11:50 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:12 am
Posts: 128
Hi All,

Building a set of CX wheels (Hope Pro4, with Pacenti CL25 rims, 28/28).
Stuck between Sapim D-light or CX ray spokes. Are the CX rays worth the extra? Got the rims for a bargain price, so can stretch the budget a little, but CX rays are so pricey!

Any advice? Are they really worth the extra? Don't care about aerodynamics.


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 Post subject: Spokes for CX wheels.
Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 11:50 am 


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 1:29 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:48 am
Posts: 2440
Location: Vienna Austria
Then they're not worth it.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:00 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:50 pm
Posts: 1018
Location: FIN
No one prove yet aero properties of flat spokes :) there's no reliable data for it. Zipp "tests" are... nothing but funny.

I have 2 wheelsets : same hubs, same rims, same lacing... only difference is spokes : DT Aerolight vs DT Supercomp. Real life difference. ? 120€ in pocket. Nothing else. There's weight difference ( less than 40g ) - but I can't feel it, even when I really want to .

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 3:20 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:12 am
Posts: 128
Yeah, I know, the wheel builders I have spoken to all say the same - the D light is a great spoke, you won't have any issues with it. BUT, the CX ray is the best, strongest, lightest spoke on the market and it builds into a stronger wheel. And in my mind it's do it once, do it right.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 7:57 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 4:04 pm
Posts: 118
CX-ray is the way to go.
I have two sets of CX wheels. Notube Grail Team (early 2015) 24/28 with special Sapim Laser spokes made for Notubes. While suing them on the road with Sector 28, I broke three spokes in the rear - two on the road, one in the race).
Second set uses CX-ray, Soul-Kozak hubs 24/28, and Gigantex tubulars. I raced this set hard and never lost a spoke or lost tension.
I use CX -ray spokes on my mtb wheels with AtomikCarbon rims. Wheels are just like day they were built even after season of racing hardtail in rocky northeast USA.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:33 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:12 am
Posts: 128
Interesting they use laser as Sapim don't advise their use with disc brakes. They would advise the d-light. I have ordered the CX Rays. Starbike with the -5% discount was the best price going.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 9:15 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 4:33 am
Posts: 1089
If you are breaking Sapim Lasers on a pair of wheels, other than in crashes, there's something wrong with the build. Period. Those spokes should rarely or never crash, never three of them in a row. So I'd venture to say that's not a valid comparison for or against CX-Rays.

Perhaps the most relevant issues about CX-Rays in Cross are (1) that they can retain more clay or mud and (2) that they might be more dangerous in the crashes that abound in cross. Those are both largely specious arguments. You spent the money on CX-Rays, so just be happy with the wheels. And be sure they are built well to justify the cost.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:06 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 4:04 pm
Posts: 118
Like I said it is 2015 Grail Team wheels 24/28. Notubes changed this wheels set to new name PRO and CXray spokes. 2016 Team has 28/32 with custom Laser spokes 1.8/1.5/1.8mm
Wheel was rebuilt by Notubes with new rim and spokes, I will see how long it will last. Last time I spoke with their service manager, I suggested that CXray spokes maybe a solution to stop to broken NDS spokes and has happened.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:00 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:10 am
Posts: 275
I will only use CX-Rays or Aerolites now. Park makes a tool that grabs the bladed part and eliminates wind up when truing so you can be so much more precise. Once you try it it's a revelation and you wonder why spokes didn't always come with "wrench flats". If you think CX-rays are expensive price out Aerolites, crazy. I tried the Chinese Pillar version (1420) cuz they're cheap but a few broke. I couldn't tell if it was because the rim forced the spokes into an awkward bend or if the metal's inferior but I decided to just stick with CX-Rays from now on.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:34 am 
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Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:25 pm
Posts: 3229
Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
CX-rays do not make a stronger wheel. Strength is the load taken until failure. Who loads wheels like that. wheels fail through fatigue and the rate of fatigue is related to stiffness of the wheel and all the factors that affect that. Spoke strengh plays a small part.

CX-rays may (and I emphasise the may) make a more fatigue resistant wheel but I doubt that as well. The elbow is the is from the same wire stock as the sapim laser or race spoke. Intial strength of the spoke at the elbow must be similar. The data that sapim produce regarding strength showing the Cx-ray to be the strongest is also a bit skewed.

Race spokes strength middle section 1300 N/mm^2 or failure load at 3382N
Laser spoke strength mid section 1500N/mm^2 or failure load at 2650N
CX-ray spoke mid section 1600N/mm^2 or failure load at around 2700-2800N (not sure of the exact cross area but it is around 1.7 mm^")

so CX-rays are not the strongest but they are not bad for a thin light spoke.

the Park tool blade holder is crap next the sapim tool. Much easier to hold and it holds the spoke better too.

I have been using lasers in my own MTB disc brake wheels for years and no issues. Would not hesistate to use them again. The rim needs to stiff though. carbon ideally.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:21 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 4:04 pm
Posts: 118
good point


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:59 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:08 am
Posts: 833
bm0p700f wrote:

CX-rays may (and I emphasise the may) make a more fatigue resistant wheel but I doubt that as well. The elbow is the is from the same wire stock as the sapim laser or race spoke. Intial strength of the spoke at the elbow must be similar. The data that sapim produce regarding strength showing the Cx-ray to be the strongest is also a bit skewed.
.


Sapim's website is just plain wrong in some areas, like more tension makes a stiffer wheel. I emailed them one time and I got back some gibberish that I couldn't decipher.

Quote:
the Park tool blade holder is crap next the sapim tool. Much easier to hold and it holds the spoke better too.


I got the little Shimano tool, then put a notch in it with my dremel cut off wheel. Holds them spokes tighter than Beyonce in yoga pants.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 2:57 am 
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Posts: 998
Location: Albuquerque, NM
bm0p700f wrote:
CX-rays do not make a stronger wheel. Strength is the load taken until failure. Who loads wheels like that. wheels fail through fatigue and the rate of fatigue is related to stiffness of the wheel and all the factors that affect that. Spoke strengh plays a small part.

CX-rays may (and I emphasise the may) make a more fatigue resistant wheel but I doubt that as well. The elbow is the is from the same wire stock as the sapim laser or race spoke. Intial strength of the spoke at the elbow must be similar. The data that sapim produce regarding strength showing the Cx-ray to be the strongest is also a bit skewed.

Race spokes strength middle section 1300 N/mm^2 or failure load at 3382N
Laser spoke strength mid section 1500N/mm^2 or failure load at 2650N
CX-ray spoke mid section 1600N/mm^2 or failure load at around 2700-2800N (not sure of the exact cross area but it is around 1.7 mm^")

so CX-rays are not the strongest but they are not bad for a thin light spoke.

the Park tool blade holder is crap next the sapim tool. Much easier to hold and it holds the spoke better too.

I have been using lasers in my own MTB disc brake wheels for years and no issues. Would not hesistate to use them again. The rim needs to stiff though. carbon ideally.

The CX-ray is a very popular spoke for straight pull spokes for this reason. The bend is gone and the sheer forces are changed to a much stronger position. I do agree that he CX-ray will have the same issues as the Laser at the bend, but a properly tensioned wheels shouldn't have issue with that. If so, people would break spokes constantly at the bend, and it is in fact a fairly uncommon occurrence. I do find people get odd about tension though. It is even more odd when I see the tools they use to "measure" tension, and in most cases are pretty shoddy bending tools that can't be calibrated (more likely simply aren't). It is a bike wheel, not the restraint system for the space shuttle carrying a satellite that has the cure for cancer. People have been making them for years, and thanks to current technology, it is easier than ever to make something straight and strong.

Side note, I prefer the DT bladed spoke holder. It has a great design for holding the spoke and still allowing the spoke wrench to turn.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:01 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2015 2:54 pm
Posts: 7
spookyload wrote:
I prefer the DT bladed spoke holder. It has a great design for holding the spoke and still allowing the spoke wrench to turn.


I have used the Sapim and DT spoke holders and agree that the DT is far better, particularly when using the DT spoke wrench as well.

I can't say if the CXray is stronger than the Laser (I doubt it), but they are definitely easier to work with, which is worth the higher price to me when building my own wheels.


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Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:01 am 


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