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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:17 am 
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Posts: 1625
Gazelleer wrote:
Ypsylon wrote:
What I really liked about Shimano is that for a long time, IME, they just didn't care about what people were saying, they just sat down and delivered a product that worked oh so well. The only time I feel they went astray from this was mechanical 7900 where they gave in and moved the shift housing under the bar tape and most of you know what that brought us.

I for one hope they go back to where they design a complete group with a kick ass performance and then the WWs in the little companies will pick it up and add their options and we'll be happy.


So true!


And indeed !!! :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:44 am 
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i remember the 7800 RD was not suppose to work with an 11-28T cassette most specifically 28T...guess what...it works flawlessly on my mate's bike....

Recommended not required i guess

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Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:44 am 


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:56 am 
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Location: Manchester, UK
There's a difference between not supposed to and definitely not. They made sure the 9 speed didn't fit the 10 speed hubs. I could understand that but making the 11 speed not fit the 10. Surely they understand a lot of people have a significant investment in wheel sets and it drives their groupset purchases. This is one of the main reasons I don't have a single campagnolo equipped bike. All my wheels can be used in all my bikes. If this is the case and the 11 can't be used on old 10 speed hubs it's going to be hello to SRAM red. Buying multiple 11 cassettes is going to be expensive enough in only dura ace at £150 each. If they expect that I'm going to remain faithful to a brand while it shafts me like that then screw them and their arrogance


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:36 pm 
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Info is Oct 17. 2011. No copying allowed, but the page has already been copied 3000 times.
http://bicycling.com/blogs/thisjustin/f ... p-2013.jpg

Dura-Ace has never been about backward compatibility.

But all Mavic wheelsets going back up to 10-12 years will work with 11 speed.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:03 pm 
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Location: Uppsala, Sweden
horse wrote:
Info is Oct 17. 2011. No copying allowed, but the page has already been copied 3000 times.
http://bicycling.com/blogs/thisjustin/f ... p-2013.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Dura-Ace has never been about backward compatibility.

But all Mavic wheelsets going back up to 10-12 years will work with 11 speed.


how come that it will work with magic wheels but no other?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:17 pm 
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Mavic freehubs are typically longer than Shimano and most others. Almost by 2-3mm. Unless the cassette spline pattern changes to something new, 11 speed would work with most Mavic wheels.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:49 pm 
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I always hated that dumb spacer that you had to use with Mavic wheels. Now it seems like they got pretty lucky. No way that they were planning on 11speed that long ago.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:51 pm 
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Yep, you have to use the really big Mavic spacer on their wheels... so there is plenty of room for a longer cassette. They basically just made their free hub for shimano the same length as the Campy one.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:52 pm 
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NS wrote:
If they expect that I'm going to remain faithful to a brand while it shafts me like that then screw them and their arrogance



Errr.... relax a little bit! Anyone who spends a significant amount of money on kit has to live with the possibility that it will be superseded at some point, not sure why you should be any different? If they were totally withdrawing support for 10 speed that would be shafting you. That said I'm not convinced another speed is really that necessary and the wheels will be weaker, at least until 135mm rear spacing comes along. Anyone expecting SRAM RED to stay at 10 speed once 9000 is out is living in a dreamland too IMHO


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 5:26 pm 
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horse wrote:
Mavic freehubs are typically longer than Shimano and most others. Almost by 2-3mm. Unless the cassette spline pattern changes to something new, 11 speed would work with most Mavic wheels.


shouldn´t it be the same with DTswiss hubs? it´s the same hub for campagnolo and shimano, just different bodys


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 5:28 pm 
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petromyzon wrote:
NS wrote:
If they expect that I'm going to remain faithful to a brand while it shafts me like that then screw them and their arrogance



Errr.... relax a little bit! Anyone who spends a significant amount of money on kit has to live with the possibility that it will be superseded at some point, not sure why you should be any different? If they were totally withdrawing support for 10 speed that would be shafting you. That said I'm not convinced another speed is really that necessary and the wheels will be weaker, at least until 135mm rear spacing comes along. Anyone expecting SRAM RED to stay at 10 speed once 9000 is out is living in a dreamland too IMHO



can´t imagining that sram would changes there red so early after just released it. and why should they


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 5:44 pm 
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Quote:
can´t imagining that sram would changes there red so early after just released it. and why should they


SRAM are the only one of the big 3 that don't own a freehub design. They are therefore at the mercy of either Shimano or Campagnolo to dictate their cassette spacing.

If (and let's face it, until we know for sure this is just speculation) Shimano couldn't fit 11 sprockets onto their freehub body, probably SRAM faced the same problem, and since they don't own their own freehub, they have to wait for Shimano to come out with something first. Since 11 speed Dura Ace has been a badly kept secret to us mere mortals, I am guessing that insiders within the industry at SRAM probably knew about it when they were creating next gen Red.

Once the other 2 are 11 speed, and a new wider Shimano freehub exists which SRAM can use, for sure they will add the extra click and compete.


Last edited by solarider on Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:58 pm 
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^^What he said. Once they are the only one of three who are still on 10speed there will be commercial pressure to update irrespective of the functional reality. Building a new cassette + thinner chain and adding a click to one brifter is not that big of a change - I wouldn't be surprised if they had designed the latter with an easy update in mind.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:54 pm 
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Location: Uppsala, Sweden
solarider wrote:
Quote:
can´t imagining that sram would changes there red so early after just released it. and why should they

Once the other 2 are 11 speed, and a new wider Shimano freehub exists which SRAM can use, for sure they will add the extra click and compete.

yes in the feature they will probably do it, but i personally don´t think they do changes to the new red, just after they have released it.

and for me personaly, i can´t se the big gain of having 11 gears in the rear. campagnolo have had it some years now, can´t se any time in for example the tour where someone has won because he had one more gear :D


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:13 pm 
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The debate over 11 gears vs 10 vs 9 and so on ad infinitum has been done so many times before. Bored now. Whatever the performance considerations, you can't either turn the clock back or ignore commercial competitive advantage. If 2/3 are 11 speed, the third will have to follow. Let's all move on.

As for SRAM not replacing new Red so soon after launch? Remember when SRAM first launched into road with Force as their top groupset? Within less than a year they released Red, much to the annoyance of lots of happy Force riders who though they had bought the top of the range kit. More recently, some dealers had barely received Red Black by the time next gen Red was announced. SRAM have past form for not waiting that long to superseed their own kit. They will launch 11 speed Red, and possibly electronic Red with no thought for the fact that they just launched next gen 10 speed Red, mark my words.

Now, back to the thread about next gen Dura Ace.....


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Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:13 pm 


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