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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:56 am 
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Why would "this, this, and this" prove there is not a problem? I think everyone is jumping on a new feature to sell bikes, regardless of the braking performance increase or the heel strike consequences. The costs of this have been completely ignored in all of the "happy happy joy joy" and the security of the entire industry moving this way.

So who has actually ridden one of these for an appreciable distance? I am hoping that someone with size 45 shoes or greater and a short spindle like speedplay has can provide a report.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:39 am 
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Arky wrote:
Why would "this, this, and this" prove there is not a problem? I think everyone is jumping on a new feature to sell bikes, regardless of the braking performance increase or the heel strike consequences. The costs of this have been completely ignored in all of the "happy happy joy joy" and the security of the entire industry moving this way.

So who has actually ridden one of these for an appreciable distance? I am hoping that someone with size 45 shoes or greater and a short spindle like speedplay has can provide a report.


It proves that there isn't a problem because if there was the companies wouldn't bother going there. So much of what governs people's decisions in retail is perception. And being one of the first companies to switch over to disks will help with the brand's perception. However, being one of the first and then having everyone say you rushed a bike to market that wasn't ready because there wasn't heel clearance will have ten times the negative effect because now people won't want any of their bikes if there's a perception that they're under-engineered. And really, if you honestly think that stuff like this isn't massively over-tested before it goes to market, then you clearly have no idea how engineering and design works. Bringing a new model to market is ridiculously expensive. Carbon molds can cost well over 60k for something state of the art and that's for one mold for one size for a prototype. If you consider the total cost of developing and producing a new frame, and consider what would happen if the company got a reputation for not putting enough R&D time into their frames, then you'd realize that the prospect of a major manufacturer missing something as simple as heel clearance is frankly ridiculous.

My old team captain from the last team I raced for before I stopped racing has put on several 100+ mile days on his Crux Disk and he's got size 46 feet and rides with his heels in. Also, the founders of Volagi both are into double-centuries and have already tested both of their models at that sort of distance. If you want more than that I'm picking up my cross frame from Circle A on friday after they converted it to disks. I'll put some 175mm cranks on it (I usually ride 170) and take a picture of the heel clearance with my speedplays.

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Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:39 am 


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:57 am 
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Arky wrote:
.....

So who has actually ridden one of these for an appreciable distance? I am hoping that someone with size 45 shoes or greater and a short spindle like speedplay has can provide a report.


Me. 6,000+ km on a Argon18 converted with a cyclocross fork (front disc only) and 4,000km on a 2011 Kona Honky Inc. Size 47 feet and 175mm cranks. Left heel in due to fractured femur from a motorbike accident. Shimano 105 pedals.

I even run a 180mm front rotor :shock: and still have never had a lockup even in the wet.

They work great in the dry, and they work EXACTLY the same in the wet.

It's pretty simple really :beerchug:

Cheers

Michael B


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:11 pm 
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Goat: I am a design engineer and know first hand that things go to market without a thorough knowledge of all necessary parameters. Marketing carries a big stick and often times engineering managers push things through quickly to achieve strategic goals. The managers feel they have a good idea of the "risk vs. reward" and lay down the law. My argument is that there is a feeling of safety in numbers. These large companies very well may be pushing though a problem that 10-20% of us will have an issue with. But that has never happened before right? ;)

Michael: sorry, our discussion is not clear. We are discussing the increase in rear spacing that is being pushed forward in the new "standard", which is not really a standard since no one is responsible for it (at the very least, there is no committee). Because of this issue, potentially many of us are going to be swapping out fork only because 1. we do not have to increase our stance, 2. we can use our existing frame and 3. still reap the benefit of a disk since most braking power is up front.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:26 pm 
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Arky, in fairness all the engineering work I've done has been in the biomedical industry where you live and die by testing and six sigma. The last company I worked at had to buy back over $1B in stock and lay off 1400 workers after they had a recall where less than 1% of one of their products was affected.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:16 am 
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Arky, if your key issue is heel strike due to either the wider rear hub spacing and/or the caliper placement, then you MAY have an issue.

But then again, it can still be an issue on any road bike at the moment.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:55 am 
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Bear in mind that we're talking about only 2.5 mm per side. That much can be absorbed by re-designing the dropouts and the inside of the non-drive side chainstay without affecting heel clearance (if we're talking about carbon bikes.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:35 pm 
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Image


When SRAM and Shimano (sorry Campy - you aren't invited) finally bring out hydraulic discs for road, then look out! 140mm or 160mm will become the standard. Hydraulics are just so much more powerful and modulate more smoothly than cable-actuated disc brakes. Campagnolo doesn't even make disc brakes. They are so far behind in that department that they will be put out of business by disc brakes hitting the road market.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:39 pm 
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Formula is Italian, Campagnolo is Italian, Formula has road disc, ...

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:29 pm 
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bones wrote:
When SRAM and Shimano (sorry Campy - you aren't invited) finally bring out hydraulic discs for road, then look out! 140mm or 160mm will become the standard. Hydraulics are just so much more powerful and modulate more smoothly than cable-actuated disc brakes. Campagnolo doesn't even make disc brakes. They are so far behind in that department that they will be put out of business by disc brakes hitting the road market.


More like when SRAM and Shimano tank taking a hit from offering a solution not needed, forced on the on the masses by BS marketing. :lol: That will be Shimano's second failure after trying to shove cheap, pot metal discs on the masses in the early, mid 70's. :D

Campy is smart not to go near that mess and stick to what matters.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:40 am 
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Gazelleer wrote:
Formula is Italian, Campagnolo is Italian, Formula has road disc, ...


Campagnolo were not apparently interested in teaming with Colnago. Formula tried ....


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 4:31 pm 
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MichaelB wrote:
Gazelleer wrote:
Formula is Italian, Campagnolo is Italian, Formula has road disc, ...


Campagnolo were not apparently interested in teaming with Colnago. Formula tried ....



The sad thing is that the more Campy ignores disc brakes, the more likely that they will be put out of business by Shimano and SRAM when discs start to take over road cycling. Already, Campy has no presence at all in the MTB industry. A big part was there refusal to have a decent group because of their reluctance to develop disc brakes. History will repeat itself again. Campagnolo will either be out of business in 5 yrs or will severely be marginalized as an afterthought. No bike manufacturer will spec their bikes with Campy. Not even the Italian ones, like Colnago.


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 11:44 pm 
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quite an exaggeration. campy doesnt get much oem business already.

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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 7:25 am 
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I wonder who is putting the brakes on the change to road bikes to disks,
is it the UCI saying no to racing with disks or the bike makers not making and promoting disks on road bikes
You cant look backwards and say no to disks otherwise we would still be using rod operated brakes for those who remember them

Barrie


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Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 7:25 am 


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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 12:26 pm 
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Well one of the big problems is what to do for neutral wheel support at races. Before you had to make sure there were Shim/SRAM and Campy wheels. With discs you also have to make sure you have all your disc sizes covered.

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