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 Post subject: Re: Chain Cleaning
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:26 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2008 11:15 pm
Posts: 670
Anyone have a good homebrew mix to substitute for the Park fluid that goes into their chain cleaner?


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 Post subject: Re: Chain Cleaning
Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:26 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: Chain Cleaning
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:14 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:26 pm
Posts: 2527
ty-ro wrote:
Anyone have a good homebrew mix to substitute for the Park fluid that goes into their chain cleaner?


Mineral spirits should work, but IMO, one batch of solvent only leaves the chain swimming in dirty solvent. A second batch of clean solvent is needed to really get the chain clean.

Used solvent can be saved and reused many times. Put the used solvent in a old water bottle or other suitable container. The dirt will settle to the bottom of the bottle. Pour clean solvent off the top for future use.


Last edited by DaveS on Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Chain Cleaning
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:21 pm 
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Posts: 2527
giantdale wrote:
You didn't understand. Of course you should clean the chain. By using a rag. Then you oil the chain. And then you wipe of the excess. It really simple.

http://www.kmcchain.com/index.php?ln=en&fn=service#2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



I'm a mechanical engineer who worked most of his career in precison machining. I understand quite well how a chain works. I've been cleaning chains in mineral spirits for 25 years. I've used a Campy 10 chain for 6,000 miles and measured only .15% elongation. That chain was cleaned many times and lubed with cheap home brew. Cleaning a chain in solvent does not ruin it instantly. It removes the dirt that would otherwise accelerate the wear at the pin and bushing and cause more rapid elongation.


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 Post subject: Re: Chain Cleaning
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:29 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2008 11:15 pm
Posts: 670
Thanks DaveS! :thumbup:


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 Post subject: Re: Chain Cleaning
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:16 pm 
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Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2010 3:28 pm
Posts: 1402
DaveS: What weight oil do you use for your home brew lube?


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 Post subject: Re: Chain Cleaning
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:42 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:07 pm
Posts: 628
JensW wrote:
BdaGhisallo wrote:
Gasoline is not the safest thiing to be using. Mineral spirits will do just as good and is a whole lot safer. I am no chemist, but it's something to do with flashpoints and such.


diesel is safer and works as god as patrol :D


+1
And even better.


Keep it simple. After the Diesel bath I take so much Diesel off the chain that it does not come off the chain to "lube" my legs,tires and wheels etc.
No grease and therefore no degreasers needed.
Just Diesel for cleaning and greasing.
Use only if bike is kept in a garage or basement.
Not recommended if you keep your bike inside your house. Wife will not like the Diesel smell.

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 Post subject: Re: Chain Cleaning
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:06 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:26 pm
Posts: 2527
bricky21 wrote:
DaveS: What weight oil do you use for your home brew lube?


I don't think that it matters much, with synthetic motor oil. Gear lube, of course, is a lot heavier at 80/90W.


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 Post subject: Re: Chain Cleaning
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:19 am 
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Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:37 am
Posts: 73
[/quote]I'm a mechanical engineer who worked most of his career in precison machining. I understand quite well how a chain works. I've been cleaning chains in mineral spirits for 25 years. I've used a Campy 10 chain for 6,000 miles and measured only .15% elongation. That chain was cleaned many times and lubed with cheap home brew. Cleaning a chain in solvent does not ruin it instantly. It removes the dirt that would otherwise accelerate the wear at the pin and bushing and cause more rapid elongation.[/quote]

Just so I understand you clearly, you are stating that you once used a single campy 10 chain for 6,000 miles (implying, though not specifically stating that's normal service life for you and your chains) and it measured .15% elongation?

My rudimentary recollection of math understands .15% as meaning (.0015) for example, if I had 100 links that measured 100cm in total length, then my elongated length would be 100.15?

Even if I gave you the benefit of the doubt and danced your decimal point around a couple of places, there is no way you were riding around on a campy 10 chain with 6,000 miles on it, without it being completely shot, unless you weigh 25 lbs, put out 20 watts at full gallop, and the chain was in a sealed bath it's entire life-and then I'd still question it.

What you are claiming is essentially just a little over 2mm total stretch, on a full 112 link chain over the course of 6,000 miles?

Sorry, I call complete fiction on this one, or too many beers when it's measuring time.


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 Post subject: Re: Chain Cleaning
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:22 am 
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Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:37 am
Posts: 73
DaveS wrote:
I'm a mechanical engineer who worked most of his career in precison machining. I understand quite well how a chain works. I've been cleaning chains in mineral spirits for 25 years. I've used a Campy 10 chain for 6,000 miles and measured only .15% elongation. That chain was cleaned many times and lubed with cheap home brew. Cleaning a chain in solvent does not ruin it instantly. It removes the dirt that would otherwise accelerate the wear at the pin and bushing and cause more rapid elongation.


Just so I understand you clearly, you are stating that you once used a single campy 10 chain for 6,000 miles (implying, though not specifically stating that's normal service life for you and your chains) and it measured .15% elongation?

My rudimentary recollection of math understands .15% as meaning (.0015) for example, if I had 100 links that measured 100cm in total length, then my elongated length would be 100.15?

Even if I gave you the benefit of the doubt and danced your decimal point around a couple of places, there is no way you were riding around on a campy 10 chain with 6,000 miles on it, without it being completely shot, unless you weigh 25 lbs, put out 20 watts at full gallop, and the chain was operated in a sealed bath it's entire life-and then I'd still question it.

What you are claiming is essentially just a little over 2mm total stretch, on a full 112 link chain over the course of 6,000 miles?

Sorry, I call complete fiction on this one, or a few too many beers at measuring time.


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 Post subject: Re: Chain Cleaning
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:22 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:04 pm
Posts: 96
Location: UK
A couple of points:
1) My Record 11s chain is currently at 7,343 miles and counting. I've got 8,000 miles on an 8 speed campy chain in the past.
2) I'm no expert but surely chain wear and elongation are not necessarily the same thing? Can't the rollers be totally knackered on their pins, without the chain being any longer?

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 Post subject: Re: Chain Cleaning
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:01 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:30 pm
Posts: 1483
Quote:
I don't think that it matters much, with synthetic motor oil. Gear lube, of course, is a lot heavier at 80/90W.

I think there should also be a "Cheap Weenies" forum. I have been trying home-brew lubes too.
I just recently tried full synthetic gear lube (75/90W) and it seems to lube well, but flies off on the road so that your rear wheel is covered with black streaks.
I have also tried numerous gun oils, etc. with similar, less than desireable, results.
IMO the best lube is the FinishLine Century Lube. It is viscous, lasts a long time, and doesn't fly off. But it does get dirty-black and look like a mess.

ProGold and Boeshield T9 seem pretty similar: they are light and dry quickly, then don't pick up dirt. But I do a lot of century rides and these light lubes just don't seem to last for even a full century in hot, dry weather. My drivetrain sounded (noticeably) completely dry by the end
So currently I trade off between century lube and the lighter lubes: Century for a long day, T9 for shorter rides. Either way it helps to relube and wipe down the chain after the ride so it is clean and as dry as possible before starting the next ride. I rarely actually clean the chain as a separate operation. .


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 Post subject: Re: Chain Cleaning
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:10 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:26 pm
Posts: 827
As a chain bath is Finish Line Citrus Degreaser any better or worse than using mineral spirits?


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 Post subject: Re: Chain Cleaning
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:31 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:32 pm
Posts: 7518
Location: Los Angeles / Glendale, California
The Citrus-based cleaner is less harmful to the environment and your lungs. :wink:
They both do the job just fine.


Personally I use this in my ultra-sonic cleaner:
Image (other brand equivalents exist in other countries/areas).
50% hot water, 50% cleaner, 5 mins in the cleaner - like new, no mess.

The price per volume is really low, it works well, and it can be picked up at your local building-supply store.

There are very few cleaners/lubricants/anti-sieze items that are so specific to the cycling world that they must come from a cycling-brand. Often the exact same stuff, sometimes better, can be found at much better prices and quantities through alternate sources... such as an automotive supply store, building-supply, hardware, etc:.

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 Post subject: Re: Chain Cleaning
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:09 am 
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Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:37 am
Posts: 73
edmundo wrote:
A couple of points:
1) My Record 11s chain is currently at 7,343 miles and counting. I've got 8,000 miles on an 8 speed campy chain in the past.
2) I'm no expert but surely chain wear and elongation are not necessarily the same thing? Can't the rollers be totally knackered on their pins, without the chain being any longer?


There are various components of wear on a chain, all of which contribute to elongation or what we might call wear.

Take a look at page 43 here:
http://www.campagnolo.com/repository/do ... chains.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
or take a look at the instructions that come with campy chains.

I've used many different chain wear measuring devices in the past and the most accurate way that I've come across is to use a set of calipers, just as noted in the campy instructions, to measure my chains. Sometimes I am a little lax, such as when I'm just putting in big miles and forget, and without fail, I start to notice when shifting begins to lose it's crispness. The upshifts aren't quite as sharp and I feel like I need to move tighten up the cable pull a 1/4 turn. Every single time I start to feel the shifting become sluggish, I take out the calipers and measure the inside length of ten links just as the instructions indicate. Without fail, the measurement is well outside of the 132.6 that campy outlines. I feel that I push things and usually wait until 132.7 or thereabouts. New campy chains generally fall into the 132.2 or so range when new, DA7900/XTR chains maybe 132.3. I take the length for the 10 links, and multiply by about 1.0045 on the long end and when it exceeds that number, it goes into the bin. That is about .45% elongation. For me, that's 1500-1900 miles on a road bike and about 4 months on my mtn bike, depending on if they were training miles or race miles. Weather conditions and maintenance as well as your average power outputs will affect that greatly. My girlfriend with a threshold power of about 200W still gets only about 3000 miles on a chain before it's sloppy and goes into the bin. Someone riding around easily, perhaps elderly, 13-15 mph avg on the flats, maybe take that out a fair bit more. That's just been my experience.

(none of the below is directed towards you edmundo)
Some will say I'm throwing my money away, but I beg to differ on that.

I'm not saying that you, or anyone else for that matter, is not riding your bikes with thousands of miles on your chains beyond what mfrs recommend. What I'm saying is that you are riding on a chain thats is no longer within original design tolerances, is more prone to breaking under extreme load, and is rapidly wearing out your cogs/chainrings.

Do you ever notice that when you replace a "worn" chain, if you replace them yourself, and you take the old chain and set it flat and extended on a countertop alongside the new chain so that you can simply and easily cut the new chain to length, that you notice that the old chain is half a link or more longer than the new chain with the same number of links? What you are seeing is a stretched out and worn out chain. A chain that no longer rides in the valleys of the cogs or chainrings but rather half way up the tooth, because the distance from pin center to pin center is longer than design tolerances. Put your chain in the big ring and pull forward on the chain at the 3 o'clock position looking from the right side. Do you see the chain links ride forward at 12 and 6 o'clock noticeably? Are you able to create a sizable gap between the chain and chainring at the point you're pulling forward? Now compare it to a new chain on an unworn chainring and see the difference.

Chance are when you put a new chain onto a worn cogset and step on it hard in a sprint or sharp climb, that your chain will skip in the most frequently used cogs.

I could care less how long someone wants to keep a chain on their bike or how long before they change it but if could affect me, I'm not so keen on that.

What bothers me is someone who is not experienced enough to know when their bike has become worn and unsafe, reads people writing on the internet about how they're getting 8,000 miles on a single chain, and then gets in front of me in a race or group ride and steps on it skipping or breaking a chain and crashes 20 people out. I've unfortunately seen that happen a few too many times.

My cleaning consists of simply spraying turtle wax bug and tar remover on to a rag and wiping clean. I do this every 2 or 3 rides, takes 2 minutes, and keeps things clean enough for me.

Chain L and motorex wet lube are what I'm using and they work quite well for me.


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 Post subject: Re: Chain Cleaning
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:20 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:54 am
Posts: 49
Here's my spin on it. I get great life out of my chains so I am not about to change it. I morphed Leonard Zinn and local bike mechanic's advice
1. Using park tool chain cleaner and diluted truck wash, clean chain and refresh about 3 times and dry with a rag
2. Take rear wheel off and clean cassette with brush, degreaser and finish off with wiping rag through the sprockets
3 Replace wheel, and lube inside top of chain with Pro Link Gold. Wipe off. Pro link is stated to have a cleaning actioin so do not be surprised to see heaps more black oil come off. Do this until oil on rag comes towards mid brown colour
4. Clean front chain rings
5 Service front and rear ders
6. Spray lightly the rear cassette with MotorEx chain lube

Ride bike :oops:


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 Post subject: Re: Chain Cleaning
Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:20 am 


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