Zipp 303 Firecrest CC vs Enve 45 CC?

[rruff]

Sounds like the issue is more with those building the Zipp rims up?

No...

But the new rims do seem to be an improvement. I've not heard of any issues with them at all.

[tonytourist]

Also, here's a shot of the infamous Cavendish wheel from the Tour de Suisse crash as it sits in my office (yes, he signed it for us). He rides standard rims on 16/20 lacing. The only non-stock item is the CX spoke in place of the CX-Ray.

The final customization to this sprinter's Venge is the wheelset, which has been built to be above all things, stiff. Starting with Shimano’s 7900 Dura-Ace hubs, team mechanics lace Sapim’s thick, round-butted Race spokes – 18 front and 24 rear – using radial and two-cross patterns to a set of Zipp 360 rims, as used on the popular 404 wheelset. The heavy gauge spokes, stout hub axles and angular contact bearings make for a base that’s both stiff and durable, according to mechanics. In the end though, the components are what Cavendish personally requested his wheels be built from.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/pro ... aren-venge
Doesn't sound like a stock build, but maybe he changed his mind this year?

[rustychain]

Shrills aside, forget carbon clinchers and get tubulars if you want carbon. If you go tubulars go Enve Smart. Better rims and better hubs. Nobody does a good carbon clincher

[Giant DK]

[cmh]

Shrills aside, forget carbon clinchers and get tubulars if you want carbon. If you go tubulars go Enve Smart. Better rims and better hubs. Nobody does a good carbon clincher

Carbonsports does a fantastic carbon clincher.

[CharlesM]

So do Zipp...

Ther are virtually no issues with the firecrest carbon clinchers. And the 303 cc run a little lighter and very close on aero.

The hubs have been very good as well and just got upgraded.

[Zoncolan]

Also, here's a shot of the infamous Cavendish wheel from the Tour de Suisse crash as it sits in my office (yes, he signed it for us). He rides standard rims on 16/20 lacing. The only non-stock item is the CX spoke in place of the CX-Ray.

The final customization to this sprinter's Venge is the wheelset, which has been built to be above all things, stiff. Starting with Shimano’s 7900 Dura-Ace hubs, team mechanics lace Sapim’s thick, round-butted Race spokes – 18 front and 24 rear – using radial and two-cross patterns to a set of Zipp 360 rims, as used on the popular 404 wheelset. The heavy gauge spokes, stout hub axles and angular contact bearings make for a base that’s both stiff and durable, according to mechanics. In the end though, the components are what Cavendish personally requested his wheels be built from.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/pro ... aren-venge" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Doesn't sound like a stock build, but maybe he changed his mind this year?

Cav has been running 18/24 lacing on Dura-Ace hubs since way back when he was on Giant TCR all the way through Scott Addict, F01, Spec Tarmac then Venge. Mostly with 404's, sometimes with an 808 rear. If that wheel (pictured) was put on his bike it was a mistake by a mechanic with the obvious consequences. Looking at the Tour de Suisse photos though I'm nearly ready to say it's not the actual wheel in the crash, hard to tell though.

[Zigmeister]

Also, here's a shot of the infamous Cavendish wheel from the Tour de Suisse crash as it sits in my office (yes, he signed it for us). He rides standard rims on 16/20 lacing. The only non-stock item is the CX spoke in place of the CX-Ray.

The final customization to this sprinter's Venge is the wheelset, which has been built to be above all things, stiff. Starting with Shimano’s 7900 Dura-Ace hubs, team mechanics lace Sapim’s thick, round-butted Race spokes – 18 front and 24 rear – using radial and two-cross patterns to a set of Zipp 360 rims, as used on the popular 404 wheelset. The heavy gauge spokes, stout hub axles and angular contact bearings make for a base that’s both stiff and durable, according to mechanics. In the end though, the components are what Cavendish personally requested his wheels be built from.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/pro ... aren-venge" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Doesn't sound like a stock build, but maybe he changed his mind this year?

Cav has been running 18/24 lacing on Dura-Ace hubs since way back when he was on Giant TCR all the way through Scott Addict, F01, Spec Tarmac then Venge. Mostly with 404's, sometimes with an 808 rear. If that wheel (pictured) was put on his bike it was a mistake by a mechanic with the obvious consequences. Looking at the Tour de Suisse photos though I'm nearly ready to say it's not the actual wheel in the crash, hard to tell though.

The TDS crash was in June of 2010. That article showing those hubs is March 2011. Possible that he just changes/switches things up sometimes or rides both. Clearly the wheel in the above photos have 16 spokes on the front.

The article appears, as well as the crash, to be a DuraAce hub. But...hard to see from the crash photo in 2010 if indeed it was a DuraAce hub.

Lastly, my two cents. I have a set of 303 FC Tubulars. Stiff enough for me, and light at 1180gm range. Wouldn't waste much time riding clinchers on deep carbon wheels...but that is my two cents. I train/race exclusively the Zipp 303 FC tubulars now. I'll take my chances that a can of vittoria pit stop won't help me out. Makes no sense to me personally riding around on $2000 clinchers except the ability to carry spares. There is zero advantage otherwise to using them, in fact, a hinderance due to weight and lack of stiffness compared to tubulars on either wheels.

Oh, one last thought...buy and ride whatever you want. It's not my money.

[Kiwirich]

The Smart ENVE 3.4's sound pretty good

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/cate ... t-12-45763

[CharlesM]

Having had a laugh with the highroad mechanic that handled that wheel afterward, that's the wheel that hausler rode up the side of causing the Taco... just stock Zipps for both guys... The wheels changed quite a bit between mixed part builds and standard.

Funny part is that you could ride that wheel afterward. find picks on the net and you'll see it's board straigh a split second after the impact.

[Waldo]

I guess I should have clarified at least that I was speaking of the wheels he's purchased from us, not those built for him by his team or the ones he borrows as needed. As Zigmeister noted, there's a good bit of variability in the wheels he rides (surprised no one dug up old pictures of him on Hed). The reason for this is that he's at least somewhat at the mercy of the equipment the team has for him at a given race.

The funny thing with the Specialized McLaren article is that the wheels shown on that bike are 3+ years old (non-fully toroidal) as of Milan-San Remo. I haven't taken too much time to search but I'd say there's a high probability that's not actually what was ridden by him based on some of the pictures I have found.

As to the assertion that use of the Tour de Suisse wheel was somehow a mistake and that 2 additional spokes on a Dura Ace hub would have prevented the wheel failure given the lateral forces and impact location, I'll definitely disagree with that based on testing and analysis of the mechanics of that rim fracture.

[Denavelo]

I've ran Edge 45 clinchers and now I'm running Edge 45 Tubular rims. To me personally, Carbon Clinchers aren't worth it. I've had 2 friends blow up tires and crash due to overheating issues when descending. I rarely ride my brakes and use corner angles and body position to govern my speed, but I still need the confidence in my braking. the last thing I want to worry about is a tire exploding from excessive heat. If you're going Deep Carbon, I'd go tubular. I have my Enve 45's laced to tune hubs and a set of Stan's 340 rims laced to Alchemy hubs for daily duties.

Yeah Carbonsports does a nice Carbon Clincher, and they also costs $4500.... Even at that price point, who hear can really say they've ridden the Carbonsport Gen III Carbon Clinchers extensively?

[CharlesM]

Hi,
I have old ZIPP 808 wheels and they definitely are not stiff. I'm 85-90kg and when I stand from saddle I can hear that rear wheel rubs brake pads from side to side. I've just received my new wheels, which are Archtek 20mm rims laced to Tune hubs with Sapim Superspoke. Rims are noticably verticaly less stiff than ZIPPs (when I glue tubulars, I always press tires against rims for better contact and grip when glue is stil not cured), so I was quite scared about lateral stiffnes of the wheels. But in fact, theese light 20mm shalow wheels are much more lateraly stiff than my old ZIPP 808 wheels.
So I would like to ask ZIPP owners, if their wheels are also noticably flexier than other wheels or if this is just problem of my old pair of 808's. Is it problem of old ZIPP hubs? ZIPP rims look quite strong to me, but built with their hubs, wheels are quite flexy.

Martin

Martin,

I think you are confused between wheel lateral stiffness and how much does the rim moves between the brake pads.
Although they are more or less related, they are two very different values.

First of all, lateral wheel stiffness represents how much the wheel will deform under a load. This is basically how much you rim will move laterally, near the ground, when you stand on the bike. The stiffer the wheel, the lower the deviation of course. The stiffer the wheel, the better your accelerations (inertia apart).
Second, deviation between the brake pads is more or less the 180° rim deflection measured on a lateral stiffness bench. It is about 1/5th the lateral stiffness.

The wheel stiffness and the 180° deflection are working together through the spoking, the rim stiffness playing the most important role, the type of spoking has a good effect too.
The stiffer the wheel, the more deflection you will find between your brake pads.

This translates into 3 things:
1. your wheel is flexy: the rim deforms a lot near the ground, though this deflection does not translate as a deflection between the brake pads because the rim is flexy and somewhat "absorbs" the load. Also the spoking certainly can't hold the rim enough in place.
2. your wheel stiffness is quite standard, from moderately stiff to stiff: the deflection near the ground is not extremely low nor extremely high, but the rim is stiff enough to make a deformation too between the brake pads.
3. your wheel is extremely stiff: the deflection at the ground is very low, rim and spoking are very rigid too so the deflection between the brake pads is a quite high %age of it. Anyway you can't even perceive the brake pad rim deflection because it is too low.

From what you say, I can tell you the ZIPP 808 is from category 2. The other shallower wheelset is definitely from category 1 unless this is a very special rim.
Since you are a strong rider, you absolutely need wheels from category 3. Avoid wheels from category 1 for one reason: although they will deliver you a good stiffness perception, they won't be performant and won't come with a good durability because the rim moves too much left/right near the ground which will increase spokes fatigue.
Wheels from category 3 are basically stiff full carbon wheels like Mavic CCU, LW Sprints, custom wheels with deep/stiff rims and absolutely strong spokings (32 DT Competition).

Of course you must avoid the super light rims with standard drillings/spokings. Avoid the ENVE 25/45/65 rims because they are very flexy and only available with 20-24 spokings now. The same for Reynolds, though a 46 or 66 built with 28 or even 32 spokes as custom will be OK. Zipp rims, 303/404/808 are fine as long as they have a stronger spoking too: 28/32 or 32/32.

Please see our lateral stiffness bench, the pointer where the load is applied (similar to load near the ground) and the pointer at the 180°, translating the deflection between the brake pads.
What's interesting about wheel stiffness and perception of the stiffness is that we can tune both values depending on the spoking, the rim stiffness and the hub geometry.





Have a great week-end.
Adrien.
http://www.roues-rar.fr" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nice post that goes well in this thread too...

[Zigmeister]

Post from Martin is kind of vague regarding specific models of wheels.

Which Zipp wheels is he referring to for stiffness, or as a comparison based on testing? Zipp FC Clinchers? Tubulars? 303/404/808 etc?!?!

What has been tested to show the specific categories each of the above fall into?

Oh and lastly, he basically says if you want a stiff wheel, you need a Category 1 wheel, which all of the full carbon wheels fall into this. Only a few specific custom built wheels don't fall into this, which he must imply all Zipp wheels.

[spud]

Zigmeister,

you got your categories reversed - cat 1 is flexy. Cat 3 is stiff, according to his post.