Shoes and fit thereof...

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alcatraz
Posts: 4064
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

Hey wws...

Been riding for a few years mostly as a hobby, pinching grams just for fun basically, playing with Strava etc.

Recently I built an aero bike and started joining in on fast group rides. It occurred to me that my fit on the bike and in the shoes could be improved upon alot.

I've never had a problem going the ww way when I've had to make a decision between saving grams or fit, but now as I'm on a heavy bike anyway I'm just interested in fit. I've noticed several things about my feet now that I'm trying to put down more power than I'm previously used to. First I thought my shoes were too loose but upon closer inspection it's my feet that are weird. One leg is longer and that side also has a larger foot. This I read isn't uncommon and 80% have this.

I just would like to ask you how you've dealt with this? If you have a leg that's 5mm shorter and a foot that's 5mm shorter, do you shim the cleat, do you use a different inner sole?

Does the cleat on the shorter side require a different cleat fore/aft position?

I'm at the stage where I have my cleats in the same position but I use a thicker inner sole on the short side. The question is if I should have that cleat further back than the longer side? By how much in relation to the foot/leg length difference?

I'm also going to try angled shims under the cleat (if I can find any) as it seems the feet kind of angle down on the outsides. Has anyone found such cleats to be helpful with power production etc? I hear 2-8 degrees is a common angle.

Thanks for reading and commenting...

by Weenie


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crlincoln
Posts: 157
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:42 am

by crlincoln

The best option I did to sort out cleat positions was with a bikefit session that focused purely on shoe setup, they measured leg length, ankle articulation (I had a leg fracture when I was 15 and still have slightly less flexibility in one ankle than the other) and how I stood and pedal to optimise the cleat positioning. Ended up with angled shims, between shoes and cleats to get better engagement and fit.

There is no way I'd ever been able to work that out by myself as everyone's feet are slightly different, so what works for one person may not for another.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12456
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Every fitter tries to make you feel "special" by saying you have a leg length discrepancy...Everyone does. It just depends on how severe. If it's like 2mm, I wouldn't even worry about it and let your body sort it out. For 1-2mm, I wouldn't even bother with shims or orthotics, but just move the cleat on the longer leg slightly more rearward.

alcatraz
Posts: 4064
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

Thanks for commenting.

It's 5-6mm leg length discrepancy. The foot length discrepancy is ridiculous at 6mm. How do those two discrepancies compound I wonder? Is it basically 5mm inner sole/cleat spacer and cleat ~3mm further back on the short foot?

I mean as a starting point, obviously time will tell if it stays or not.

I found an app called "bikefit" that can give you a starting point for what angle shim you need (to address the issue of not standing flat).
crlincoln wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:26 am
The best option I did to sort out cleat positions was with a bikefit session that focused purely on shoe setup, they measured leg length, ankle articulation (I had a leg fracture when I was 15 and still have slightly less flexibility in one ankle than the other) and how I stood and pedal to optimise the cleat positioning. Ended up with angled shims, between shoes and cleats to get better engagement and fit.

There is no way I'd ever been able to work that out by myself as everyone's feet are slightly different, so what works for one person may not for another.
What angle shim did you end up using and what is your percieved difference riding that? Do you like the feeling of clipping in at a slight angle compared to perfectly flat?

Edit: Good news is that the foot length difference is only toe length. The ball joint is the same distance from the heel. That takes care of that issue.

osw000
Posts: 87
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:23 am
Location: Girona

by osw000

How did the fitter measured leg length? Most discrepancies are apparent due to tight muscles at the hip. I wouldn't get shimmed until getting a proper assesment through RX examination.

alcatraz
Posts: 4064
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

It's not easy but after measuring a dozen times you kind of start to notice a pattern. You can measure between various portusions on your hip and ankle, standing on one leg, etc. The wife comes in handy.

I haven't visited a fitter yet. Maybe never will. Just trying to get a ballpark starting point.

If I do visit a fitter I don't want to give them an easy fix. I want to give them a challenge. Apparently 80% of people have a leg length difference and about ~0% actually have a cleat spacer from previous fitters when they walk into this fitter on youtube. That kind of peaked my interest to learn more myself and not rely on fitters too much. Besides, I'm relatively new into the sport, less than 5y riding.

robertbb
Posts: 2179
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am

by robertbb

Hey guys. I just got an email from 3Pio (who I had previously chatted to offline by email... he's a very friendly and helpful guy)

He is unable to log in and he's concerned that his ban appears to have been re-instated... (he had older ban that expired and had since posted again).

He says he's trying to communicate with alcatraz in this thread.

Was something said? He can't understand it... and says he's emailed mods but without response.

Pretty sure this dude has been on WW forum for a decade or so... as long as me... it would be a shame to push him away. I don't get what's going on.

(And Alcatraz, I TOTALLY forgot I'm meant to measure a Castelli top for you... I will do so when I'm back home in a few days and will pm you)

JMeinholdt
Posts: 764
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:31 pm
Location: Topeka, KS

by JMeinholdt

I'm kind of in the same boat as you. I've been riding for a few years and never really had much of an issue until I really focused on training and bumped my FTP by about 40 watts. Now I'm identifying weak links in the chain so to speak.

I have one leg that appears to be ever so slightly shorter than the other, but interestingly, my foot on that side is about 3-4mm longer (and it has a different shaped arch to boot).

While I'm not quite at 100% with that leg yet, I've found that cleat position is the most important factor. Watch how your knees track while riding. The way the foot naturally wants to move influences knee movement, not the other way around. If your knee tracks inward, toe out, and if it tracks outward, toe in.

I also have a tendency to drive the outer side of my foot down, which increased pressure and caused pain after extended time, so I placed an angle wedge under my cleat which evened out the pressure. I tried 2mm of flat spacers beforehand, which helped, but the angle was 10x's better. It's all about trial and error. And NEVER assume that it's corrected by a trainer session. I always tested on both a trainer session and outdoors. After being routinely 51L/49R, I'm now almost 100% 50/50. I don't, however, feel like I improved overall power production.

You can pick up sets of shims on eBay cheap enough to tinker around with.

My next battle is to identify a proper insole to alleviate the arch pressure I have in my uncooperative foot....
Wilier Cento10AIR - SRAM Force AXS - Road/race
3T Exploro - SRAM Rival AXS XPLR - Gravel
Wilier Sestiere - Shimano Tiagra - Commuter

YouTube link: https://www.youtube.com/@JMCyclingVideos

osw000
Posts: 87
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:23 am
Location: Girona

by osw000

Check this article from Steve Hogg, IMO is very revelatory.

https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bi ... -shimming/

It describes a process to self assess if any shimming is needed at all.

It will probably lead you to read back part 1 and 2 because shimming is the last step in the foot correction process. It assumes that you have previously got proper arch support and wedging if needed.

alcatraz
Posts: 4064
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

Thank you robertbb, no worries about the measurement of the jacket. I am super pleased with the castelli trasparente I got in size S. Got a fair deal so went with that. I wasn't aware 3pio is having issues. Maybe PM a moderator?

JMeinholdt, that is very interesting. I'm going to focus on my knees and look into getting some angle shims. I happen to have float on my time pedals which I believe is going to interfere with any rotation of the cleat though. Eventually I'll transition over to speedplay. Have you seen the app "bikefit" in the google play store? It's supposed to help figure out what angle shim you need by analysing your foot angles when you kneel on a chair and let the feet hang down relaxed. I wonder if this approach is any good.

osw000, so shimming isn't a good idea to deal with leg length differences? I'm afraid I'm not sitting centered enough. Thanks for the article.

JMeinholdt
Posts: 764
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:31 pm
Location: Topeka, KS

by JMeinholdt

alcatraz wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:42 pm
JMeinholdt, that is very interesting. I'm going to focus on my knees and look into getting some angle shims. I happen to have float on my time pedals which I believe is going to interfere with any rotation of the cleat though. Eventually I'll transition over to speedplay. Have you seen the app "bikefit" in the google play store? It's supposed to help figure out what angle shim you need by analysing your foot angles when you kneel on a chair and let the feet hang down relaxed. I wonder if this approach is any good.
I have Shimano pedals with yellow cleats. They have the most float available for Shimano. I still had to angle my cleat on my right side to a slightly toed out position as my knee would rub my top tube when it was set straight. Float plays a factor, but there's limitations to float. Interestingly my left side is set dead straight and tracks perfectly.

I'm actually an apple guy, personally. The "Bikefit" app appears to have bad reviews, whereas the "Bike Fit Fast Elite" app seems to have great reviews. I've considering buying it. I'm not super concerned with measuring the angle of the wedge I need as it's relatively easy for me to test out (and I feel like I've got it dialed pretty well).

I may spring for the BFF elite app today and give it a shot.
Wilier Cento10AIR - SRAM Force AXS - Road/race
3T Exploro - SRAM Rival AXS XPLR - Gravel
Wilier Sestiere - Shimano Tiagra - Commuter

YouTube link: https://www.youtube.com/@JMCyclingVideos

osw000
Posts: 87
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:23 am
Location: Girona

by osw000

alcatraz wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:42 pm

osw000, so shimming isn't a good idea to deal with leg length differences? I'm afraid I'm not sitting centered enough. Thanks for the article.
It's not that it's a bad idea, Hogg actually states that 1/3 of his clients got shimmed. It's just that maybe it can be sorted out only by having a proper arch support.

If you have a difference in foot length check (footprint test) that you are not collapsing one arch more than the other. A fallen arch in one side can make the foot a bit longer.

Is your "longer" leg with longer foot the dominant leg? The right one, isn't it?

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ms6073
Posts: 4290
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2004 8:24 pm
Location: Houston, Texas

by ms6073

alcatraz wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:01 am
One leg is longer and that side also has a larger foot. This I read isn't uncommon and 80% have this.
Have you had this verified by a medical professional who took X-Rays and then analyzed the radio graphs to verify/quntify the discrepency?
- Michael
"People should stop expecting normal from me... seriously, we all know it's never going to happen"

Orbital
Posts: 392
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:52 am
Location: Pitt Meadows, BC

by Orbital

Curious if age plays a factor here. What I mean is, are these issues that needed correction from the start or became more apparent later in life? I’m 43, have pretty bad ankles from 17 years of skateboarding, a major ankle bone fracture from hockey and broke both my heels e few years ago. I haven’t had a problem with pain or finding a fit that works for me. Only issues is unclipping because of limited range in one ankle and almost no range in the other.

by Weenie


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bremerradkurier
Posts: 419
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:18 pm

by bremerradkurier

I have very flat feet that required a waiver for military service and am very happy with these Bont knockoffs after the heat molding process compared to Northwave, Sidi, Shimano, and Carnac shoes I've worn in the past-weird at first as they have very pronounced arch support, but now they seem to fit like a very comfortable and well ventilated ski boot.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000274 ... 4c4diymlMI

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