HOT: Active* forum members generally gain 5% discount at starbike.com store!
Weight Weenies
* FAQ    * Search    * Trending Topics
* Login   * Register
HOME Listings Articles FAQ Contact About




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 168 posts ] 
Go to page Previous  1 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:45 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:23 am
Posts: 655
Location: so. cal.
andyindo wrote:
If anyone really thinks discs are going to get them down a typical Alpine descent faster than normal brakes then I think they need to work on their skills and cornering technique first.

Absolutely agree.

Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk


Top
 Profile  
 
Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:45 pm 


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:34 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2006 6:01 pm
Posts: 1498
justkeepedaling wrote:
Briscoelab wrote:
Anyone want a few sets of C24 tubulars? :)


You can ship some to me, I'll pay postage :lol:


Postage will be about $1000 :)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:58 pm
Posts: 460
Location: Ontario, Canada
My thinking here is that most people who are wanting to keep normal brakes haven't ridden a mountain bike, or are people that recently got into mountain biking and have only known the power of discs.

I've raced MTB's with cantilever, v-brakes, and hydraulic discs. In all conditions, from rainy all day epics in mountains to dry flat terrain. The brakes have gotten better and more powerful in the order I listed them. I still think that if it's dry and you are in flat terrain that doesn't require a lot of slowing down, v-brakes are fine on a MTB. As soon as it rains, yes, they still work, but hydraulic discs are A LOT better. And this is at the 50-40 km/h max you hit on MTB trails. I can only imagine how nice they would be on a wet road ride/race when you are at 80+ km/h. If you think it can be fixed with better technique you obviously haven't ridden/raced in the rain. Lower power is lower power, you can't stop as fast. Good technique is being able to slow down quickly, and in as little distance as possible for a corner to maximize the time you spend at a higher speed before the corner. If discs allow you to slow down to the required speed faster, then you will be at a higher speed for longer, and therefore, faster overall.

One road ride I did was particularly frightening and made me really want discs that day. It was in South Carolina, we did about 180 km that day and it was pouring the whole time, and we were in the mountains the whole time. It was training, so I had open pro's and standard Shimano pads (Ultegra), not known for their poor power. They were brand new at the start of the camp down there, and this was the 3rd day in, practically no wear. By the end everyone in my group had little-to-no pads left, quite a few were metal on metal. Only 'technique' that would have kept us safe is being pussies and not riding, but hey, coach said ride. Point: my MTB pads last half a season in all conditions, don't wear out in one ride (unless using organics in a wet sandy race, but that's another story).

Do we NEED them? No. But they will make the ride a little nicer, and probably a little faster. That's called development. Of course there will still be the hardcore WW's that will keep the rim brakes.

Of course there will still be the hardcore WW's that will keep the rim brakes

I find it kinda funny because there are also threads here about which road brake is more powerful and how many people won't use certain lightweight brands because they don't give enough power.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 10:03 am
Posts: 372
rgkicksbutt wrote:
My thinking here is that most people who are wanting to keep normal brakes haven't ridden a mountain bike, or are people that recently got into mountain biking and have only known the power of discs.

I've raced MTB's with cantilever, v-brakes, and hydraulic discs. In all conditions, from rainy all day epics in mountains to dry flat terrain. The brakes have gotten better and more powerful in the order I listed them. I still think that if it's dry and you are in flat terrain that doesn't require a lot of slowing down, v-brakes are fine on a MTB. As soon as it rains, yes, they still work, but hydraulic discs are A LOT better. And this is at the 50-40 km/h max you hit on MTB trails. I can only imagine how nice they would be on a wet road ride/race when you are at 80+ km/h. If you think it can be fixed with better technique you obviously haven't ridden/raced in the rain. Lower power is lower power, you can't stop as fast. Good technique is being able to slow down quickly, and in as little distance as possible for a corner to maximize the time you spend at a higher speed before the corner. If discs allow you to slow down to the required speed faster, then you will be at a higher speed for longer, and therefore, faster overall.

One road ride I did was particularly frightening and made me really want discs that day. It was in South Carolina, we did about 180 km that day and it was pouring the whole time, and we were in the mountains the whole time. It was training, so I had open pro's and standard Shimano pads (Ultegra), not known for their poor power. They were brand new at the start of the camp down there, and this was the 3rd day in, practically no wear. By the end everyone in my group had little-to-no pads left, quite a few were metal on metal. Only 'technique' that would have kept us safe is being pussies and not riding, but hey, coach said ride. Point: my MTB pads last half a season in all conditions, don't wear out in one ride (unless using organics in a wet sandy race, but that's another story).

Do we NEED them? No. But they will make the ride a little nicer, and probably a little faster. That's called development. Of course there will still be the hardcore WW's that will keep the rim brakes.

Of course there will still be the hardcore WW's that will keep the rim brakes

I find it kinda funny because there are also threads here about which road brake is more powerful and how many people won't use certain lightweight brands because they don't give enough power.


OK, well I've raced road for the last 20 years, cyclocross for 8 and more recently mtb's for the last 5 years in ALL conditions from the 8 day Cape Epic to 24hr muddy races in the UK. Discs have their place, without a doubt in MTB and I'm glad to see the UCI allow them in cross as well. Road riding in mountains in the wet can be scary I agree, but even in the wet on the road I'm more concerned with sliding than braking and too much power can be a bad thing! You dont have abs on a disc brake! You can easily lock the back wheel with the brakes now, so why do we need more power unless you can also get improved traction on the road!Agree that because of the crossover from cyclocross we are no doubt going to see more discs on road bikes but the compatibility issues will be ridiculous.

BTW, disc pads can wear rapidly as well. MTB in Wales on a wet day and you can go through a set of pads in one ride. Its wonderful when you're halfway into your mtb ride and hear metal on metal and realise your back brake is out of pads. Havent had that happen on a road ride yet.... All pads wear, it just depends on the conditions......


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:23 am
Posts: 640
Location: Melbourne, Australia
When are the carbon ceramic discs coming out? :lol:

_________________
Slam your stem.
prendrefeu wrote:
Hating a 'drivetrain' choice on one bike vs. another is as imbecile as people getting into fist-fights at a motor race that they are not actually racing in Australia over a debate between two car companies. It really is ridiculous.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:31 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 5:23 am
Posts: 27
Location: FL
I also don't understand the need for disc brakes on a road bike. If I tried I could flip myself over the bars with 2 fingers on the lever as well as skid the rear tire with one finger. Maybe it is because I'm 135lbs???? Are heavier riders having issues with stopping power?

_________________
http://www.pinnaclewheelworks.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:37 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:31 pm
Posts: 945
andyindo wrote:
If anyone really thinks discs are going to get them down a typical Alpine descent faster than normal brakes then I think they need to work on their skills and cornering technique first.


Well I didn't get overtaken on one all last year including competing in the majority of larger sportive events. My time for the descent of Alpe d'Huez is sub 14 minutes. I'm fairly confident I know what I'm talking about here but then I don't know you from Adam.

It amazes me how many posters STILL seem to think discs are all about power.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:47 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2011 6:47 am
Posts: 34
I don't think anyone doubts a person can descent as fast (or faster) using normal brakes vs disc brakes in the right conditions and provide your equipment don't fail.

Disc brakes will address one common problem, which is going downhill if you use full carbon rims and if it also rains. If dry, carbon can overheat and cause the rim to break, resulting in a serious crash. If wet, normal braking on flats (with carbon wheels) is already a big?

It will pobably address the above but then again may introduce other problems to worry about.

I don't think disc brakes are meant to be all out powerful, the main thing going for it is the ease of modulating the brake force. You can already lock up using normal brakes thus already needing you to modulate the force on levers. If having disc brakes will give you even better braking modulation (will lock up with normal or disc brakes), then it is an improvement, in that respect. Conventional brakes with carbon braking surfaces can be grabby and inconsistent.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:51 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:16 pm
Posts: 617
ok as someone who has ridden MTB's, Road bikes and cx bikes with and without disc for years this is my thoughts.

disc on MTBs are brillaint hard to imagine riding without them again although did manage for years before they came out.

CX bike with disc, brilliant first got one about 6 years ago before the UCI banned them the first time, really good being able to stop when things get wet and muddy

Road bike with disc, not so sure, Ive got a spare CX bike set up the same as by road bikes except its got disc. I have to say it can be a little scary, 23mm tires just cant handle the power of the disc and if your not real careful you just lock up wheels all the time. On fast wet decents the limiting factor is still the tire grip on the road not the brakes. Yes you wont wear you rims out and they will look nice and shiny for longer but youll gonna kill tires.

this is of course with the current disc brake options, if they actually make a much less powerfull disc or one with more feel then than what out there now it might be ok but its still gonna be the tire/road interface that limits your stopping distance. If your set on hydro i kinda think Magura had the right idea years ago with its road rim hydro brake, it just needed some work and a compatable STI lever.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:16 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:56 am
Posts: 1
Why exactly did we need disk on road bike?

Really having disk on road bike would shave off minutes or seconds during road race? After all we race against time and each other aren't we?

I could see potential need if road bikes were use as commute bikes or touring bike, then going fast was less concern than ride safe. But going fast purpose on road racing bike, I don't see reasons behind going disk at all.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:42 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 4:51 am
Posts: 1626
yourdaguy wrote:
Well without adding weight and strength to the seat stay and making the ride harsher or making the left have less spring than the right, you have to mount the brake on the chain stay or add a substantial brace between the seat and chainstay. Due to room considerations between the seat stay and chain stay you can only go so close and 140 is pretty much the limit because you start having to really distort the shape of the seat stay. If you have to do it on the bottom of the chainstay, you end up having a long post reaching down from the axle area of the chainstay in order to get the position correct. I have done many designs in my head of how this would work on a road bike and the only logical place is between the chainstay and seatstay. Why don't you show us a design that would work with a 115mm disc?


And before I forget... stop shifting goalposts to suit your excuses. I said that on paper a 110mm is possible with some changes to the mounting and then you start babbling about NOT radically changing this and that and the shape of stays etc, etc ...

yourdaguy wrote:

Apparently you haven't either. I am saying I have done the thought exercise and I clearly explained it. You are claiming it is easily doable but offer no proof. The ball is in your court to prove me wrong.




In"your head " and on paper are totally different matters. Hypothetical generalizations do not prove anything. If it was ... the whole world's financial problems would have been solved by hypothetical answers sometime ago. Likewise all the malignant diseases and viruses out there routed. NOTE: You're not Einstein working on the General Theory of Relativity.

Ok, I take that challenge but unfortunately, I don't think you can prove yours once I do mine. If you can post yours in a representative scale drawing or equivalent I'll post my CAD model the next moment I read this post (within 24 hours as of this posting). There's nothing to prove on my part cos people who know my day job will understand that I don't bull on such stuff. BTW, I'm a mechanical design engineer by profession, mechanical componentry design is my bread and butter except that I deal mostly with vehicles and robots rather than bicycles.

Want a challenge on this ? You're on! :beerchug:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:48 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:08 pm
Posts: 193
I don't want to challenge you, maxxevv, but I would love to see what mounting solutions you come up with. I'm writing a sort of opinion piece on this very subject right now.

_________________
VeloNews Magazine/VeloNews.com tech
Contact always welcome - http://velonews.competitor.com/author/cfretz / cfretz at competitorgroup dot com.
Twitter: @CaleyFretz


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:48 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:25 am
Posts: 2174
Location: Southern Indiana USA
Looking forward to your design.

_________________
For certain parts stiffer is more important than lighter.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:30 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 4:51 am
Posts: 1626
VNTech wrote:
I don't want to challenge you, maxxevv, but I would love to see what mounting solutions you come up with. I'm writing a sort of opinion piece on this very subject right now.


Well, I appreciate that. At least you know what you're talking about. :thumbup:

Nothing radical but a slight tweak. We have seen similar mounting solutions on some bike makes already, no big deal. Will post back in 24hrs.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:43 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:08 pm
Posts: 193
maxxevv wrote:
VNTech wrote:
I don't want to challenge you, maxxevv, but I would love to see what mounting solutions you come up with. I'm writing a sort of opinion piece on this very subject right now.


Well, I appreciate that. At least you know what you're talking about. :thumbup:


Let's not get carried away :lol: I'm a writer, not an engineer. Those can't do, write, right?

_________________
VeloNews Magazine/VeloNews.com tech
Contact always welcome - http://velonews.competitor.com/author/cfretz / cfretz at competitorgroup dot com.
Twitter: @CaleyFretz


Top
 Profile  
 
Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:43 am 


Top
  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 168 posts ] 
Go to page Previous  1 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Dansmith667, Google Adsense [Bot], tomyboy2, wasfast, Yahoo [Bot] and 46 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

   Similar Topics   Author   Replies   Views   Last post 
There are no new unread posts for this topic. Shimano Dura Ace 9000 Chainring Staining?

in Road

mikael17128

2

422

Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:42 am

Anders3404 View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. Shimano Dura Ace 9000 Shifter Issue (& 6800 cassette moan)

in Road

dynaserve

2

533

Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:57 pm

FlemishCompact View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. Mecahncial 11sp Shimano vs 11sp Campag

[ Go to page: 1, 2 ]

in Road

ichobi

16

2144

Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:39 am

coolmingli View the latest post

This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies. Dura Ace 9000 compatibility

in Road

insightt47

2

1516

Thu May 16, 2013 5:47 am

insightt47 View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. DURA ACE 9000 OR ROTOR

in Road

treetrees

10

1886

Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:10 am

maquisard View the latest post


It is currently Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:03 pm

All times are UTC + 1 hour




Advertising   –  FAQ   –  Contact   –  Convert   –  About

© Weight Weenies 2000-2013
hosted by starbike.com


How to get rid of these ads? Just register!


Powered by phpBB