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 Post subject: Re: SRAM news brewing...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:36 pm 
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@Kwalker: 1744g for a complete grouppo is very very good! Overall in total it is the best mechanical grouppo at the moment. Dura Ace is also very very good and for some aspect maybe better, but much heavier.
Campa Super Record is expensive and heavier. also very very good. At this level the differences are small and it depends on personal taste.

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 Post subject: Re: SRAM news brewing...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:53 pm 
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KWalker wrote:
I don't see much appeal for the group. It has no advantages if you:

-Use a heavier duty training cassette.


I agree: a Red-level cassette is race-day, in my view, although Recon also does nicely for that purpose and is lighter and cheaper. But I see a lot of riders tooling around on Red cassettes.

Quote:
-Use a powermeter or non-group crankset.

The Quarq is non-group, isn't it? It's S900, not Red. Key it seems is just the chainrings. While not all chainrings work on a Red crank, seems Red rings should work on other cranks.

Quote:
-Use non-group brakes.
-Have no issue with the current ergos.


Well, this last point is self-evident. I'm a Jan Heine fan and he made a point to dig up an ancient Ciclo derailleur for his "dream bike", and he likes rod front shifters. He'd argue derailleurs haven't improved for 60 years. I disagree...

In the Red, outside of the brakes and crankset, the hood ergonomics are better and the front derailleur is better. Rear derailleur has more capacity and better pulleys. Basically everything which could be better is better.

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 Post subject: Re: SRAM news brewing...
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:53 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: SRAM news brewing...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:06 pm 
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True, but If you have a Red Grouppo at the moment and it is not 4 years old or giving problems, the new Red grouppo is not Necessary. It is Necessary if you WANT the new RED grouppo :mrgreen: :-)
The new RED grouppo is better then the "old" version but not much if you are cycle enthousiast and no racer imho. The "old" Red Grouppo is still very very good.
:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: SRAM news brewing...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:45 pm 
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The rings will most likely work but the little pin to keep the chain from going in-between the arm and ring will be in the wrong place.


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 Post subject: Re: SRAM news brewing...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:12 pm 
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poppiholla wrote:
I want de new FD and new (11-23 and 11-28) cassette also in combination with my current Red grouppo :roll:


Check this on my flicker for compatibility. You are not able to just do the FD and Crank.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: SRAM news brewing...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:28 pm 
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According to Velonews:

"Compatibility
Here’s the big one. All of SRAM’s cable pull ratios have remained the same, so in theory everything should be backwards compatible with old Red, Force and Rival. However, much like Shimano, SRAM insists that the group is designed as a system and therefore will work considerably better with all the correct parts."


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 Post subject: Re: SRAM news brewing...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:31 pm 
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Location: Bay Area
djconnel wrote:
KWalker wrote:
I don't see much appeal for the group. It has no advantages if you:

-Use a heavier duty training cassette.


I agree: a Red-level cassette is race-day, in my view, although Recon also does nicely for that purpose and is lighter and cheaper. But I see a lot of riders tooling around on Red cassettes.

Quote:
-Use a powermeter or non-group crankset.

The Quarq is non-group, isn't it? It's S900, not Red. Key it seems is just the chainrings. While not all chainrings work on a Red crank, seems Red rings should work on other cranks.

Quote:
-Use non-group brakes.
-Have no issue with the current ergos.


Well, this last point is self-evident. I'm a Jan Heine fan and he made a point to dig up an ancient Ciclo derailleur for his "dream bike", and he likes rod front shifters. He'd argue derailleurs haven't improved for 60 years. I disagree...

In the Red, outside of the brakes and crankset, the hood ergonomics are better and the front derailleur is better. Rear derailleur has more capacity and better pulleys. Basically everything which could be better is better.


I disagree with the last point. Its marginally better, but not 4-years-in-the-making better. Were rear pulleys really an issue? Front shifting was because it was awful, but now its just OK. The ergos are personal and shouldn't be such a huge focal point for the group. Its nice they're better, but it just pulled Red even with other top tier groups, which it should have been before.

No response for the weight thing- they do win there. I don't care as much, however, considering what I ride during training and I value better overall shifting more than anything. Different priorities I guess. One thing I want to see is how durability is enhanced. After working at a shop it was alarming to see how many faulty Red/Force warranty issues there were. Lower tier Shimano groups had problems, but I've never had to warranty a single 7900 or Campy part and I can't even begin to count how many faulty Red levers and mechs I've seen.

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 Post subject: Re: SRAM news brewing...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:37 pm 
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There's two questions:

1. What's needed to make my front shifting work as good as these reviews claim it does? The answer to that is likely in that compatibility chart.

2. What combinations will work no worse than the present Red? This is more relevant. If I swap a 2011 Red front for a 2012 Red front, no other changes, will my shifting degrade?

My guess on #2 is the answer is "shifting will not degrade" except that there will be a trim position in the shifting which shouldn't be needed. Maybe the shifters have optimizations specific to the new front derailleur, and as a result the advantage, other than loss of trim, won't be as good.

New levers with old front derailleur would lose the trim (which I don't use anyway).

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 Post subject: Re: SRAM news brewing...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:59 pm 
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I read a story on Bikerumor this morning which states the FD pull ratio is different, so the NEW FD will not work 'properly' with Old Shifters.

Good story - lots of detail

http://www.bikerumor.com/2012/02/01/unv ... rgonomics/


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 Post subject: Re: SRAM news brewing...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:17 pm 
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Posts: 188
KWalker wrote:
I love this quote from the CyclingNews review: '...still not on par with Dura Ace'.

How hard is it to get front shifting right? I'm glad its better, but shit.

VeloNews said it was better. We'll just have to see when it comes out.

KWalker wrote:
I don't see much appeal for the group. It has no advantages if you:

-Use a heavier duty training cassette.
-Use a powermeter or non-group crankset.
-Use non-group brakes.
-Have no issue with the current ergos.


So there isn't much appeal for the group if you don't use half of it? You could say the same thing about Dura Ace if you don't use the crankset or brakes either.

KWalker wrote:
Kind of a fail. Seriously almost 5 years to do this? Maybe its just a ploy until they drop a next gen group after 9000 comes out.

I don't understand how people think this. Do people think that all the other groups just appear out of thin air and SRAM is working on Red all the time? I'm guessing they are on a year long project cadence along with all the other component manufacturers to match all of the bike manufacturers. In reality, that means they were working on this for probably 1.5 years since it was rumored to launch last August.


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 Post subject: Re: SRAM news brewing...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:20 pm 
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Velonews said it was better than before, but still not on par with Dura Ace and others. Kinda sad considering that they're putting a lot of hype into YAW. I could give a shit about chain rub noise, I just want it to shift well.

I don't use DA cranks, but I use the brakes. If Shimano came out with 9000 and only made the same updates that Sram did then I'd be saying the same thing. Well, maybe not considering the legacy of DA brakes,

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 Post subject: Re: SRAM news brewing...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:22 pm 
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Fantastic link, thanks! Interesting question how important cable throw is to FD, since you run up against the limit screws on both ends.

Good quotes in that article: "forum trolls"... heh. And discussion of users misinstalling the rear derailleur cable. Who would do such a stupid thing? Err.....

On the crank:
“We think they’re likely the stiffest cranks available, they’re definitely the stiffest we’ve ever made,” claims Zellman. “We don’t have an exact percentage of how much stiffer than the prior generation. Yet.”

Alloy Rival cranks tested very stiff, so it's going to be interesting to see how these test.

Very nice mass table. FD is heavier. RD is surprisingly lighter, despite longer arm for bigger cassettes.

Interesting comment at end of article suggests 11 speed is in SRAM's future.

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 Post subject: Re: SRAM news brewing...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:31 pm 
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djconnel wrote:
Interesting comment at end of article suggests 11 speed is in SRAM's future.


I siad it before (maybe even in this thread) SRAM CAN'T GO 11SPD UNTIL SHIMANO DOES. They use Shimano's freehub spline pattern and don't have enough market share to introduce a new standard and have it stick. When they see what Shimano does for 11SPD with regards to the freehub they will follow suit...and my guess is very quickly. All they have to do is change the indexer in the shifter and re-space the cassette as needed. Aftermarket chains already exist so SRAM making a chain won't be the issue it was originally for Campagnolo.

SRAM will follow Shimano to 11 speed within a year of Shimano's release...that is my prediction.


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 Post subject: Re: SRAM news brewing...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:36 pm 
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poppiholla wrote:
Campa Super Record is expensive and heavier. also very very good. At this level the differences are small and it depends on personal taste.


Wait, SR expensive? Yes, it is, but still cheaper than RED! As I can see, there is no problem to buy SR group with titanium spindle for 2200$. RED is supposed to be at 2575$ ! That is 375$ more for RED.


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 Post subject: Re: SRAM news brewing...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:40 pm 
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Posts: 188
KWalker wrote:
Velonews said it was better than before, but still not on par with Dura Ace and others. Kinda sad considering that they're putting a lot of hype into YAW. I could give a shit about chain rub noise, I just want it to shift well.

I don't use DA cranks, but I use the brakes. If Shimano came out with 9000 and only made the same updates that Sram did then I'd be saying the same thing. Well, maybe not considering the legacy of DA brakes,


Nope, they say it's the best mechanical group and close to DA Di2.

Quote:
First: would the front shifting be an improvement, and if so, where does it slot into the current hierarchy of system. Prior to today, my ranking went as follows: Shimano Dura-Ace Di2, Shimano Ultegra Di2, Campagnolo EPS, Shimano Dura-Ace 7900, Campagnolo Record mechanical, Shimano Ultegra mechanical… on and on between Campagnolo and Shimano. Old Red fit somewhere down near the bottom.

Yes, the new Yaw system and chainrings are a marked improvement over the old Red. In fact, and this is the big one, new Red outstrips Shimano Dura-Ace 7900 and undoubtedly provides the best front shifting of any mechanical group. Even more impressive: new Red comes dangerously close to matching Dura-Ace Di2.


I agree this isn't too much of an improvement for all the people who just use the shifters/RD. However, as an entire group it seems like quite the improvement.

Overall I am pretty pleased with what has come out so far. I am excited to see DA 9000 come out as well. Hopefully there is more to it than just adding another cog. I am not buying all new wheels for that. I doubt Shimano will disappoint though.


Last edited by durkonion on Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: SRAM news brewing...
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:40 pm 


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