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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:21 am 
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Posts: 129
Location: Pa USA
Search the web for prices. Ridiculously low(complete groups below a grand). Word is that Shimano is going to pull all of their product back from online retailers, as did Campy a while back. Even wholesalers like QPB in the states. Hence, stuff is being dumped because the sellers can't provide replacement/support after whatever the changeover date is. This is what I'm hearing from management at the shop where I fill in occasionally. No reason to doubt it, but can anyone confirm?

And the recent kill off of 6770 parts coupled with software that makes 6870 replacements partially incompatible leads me to believe that something nefarious is going on with big S.

Oh yeah, has anyone tried to deal with the arrogance that is their dealer service? Recently had a funky Di2 fd. Their response? Send it back, we'll let you know in three weeks or so whether you get a credit. In the meantime, the retailer is on the hook with the customer. Sounds like they only want to do OEM.


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Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:21 am 


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:19 am 
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in europe...this will not happened... eu does not tolerate price fixing/monopolies.
plus if they follow this path the sales of dura ace/di2 will take a big hit.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:56 am 
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glepore wrote:
...coupled with software that makes 6870 replacements partially incompatible leads me to believe that something nefarious is going on with big S...

In the not-so-distant future I predict "jailbroken" groupsets popping up... Hacks that circumvent manufacturer's intentions as far as mixing current and older generations... Or possibly to even mix-and-match different manufacturers entirely. Imagine when SRAM, Shimano, and Campy all have wireless systems... The only thing that would be incompatible would be the software, which can be rewritten...

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 9:52 am 
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Shimano has been restructuring distribution channels. In their mind too many people were distributors of Shimano product. In the US only a few distributors are allowed to carry Shimano products and then it is the low end stuff that also has lower margins. QBP actually loses money on most of the Shimano stuff they sell. All high end Shimano gear will be direct fulfillment from Shimano. I have no doubt this will be a disaster for them and lead to short term shortages and shipping delays at nearly every level. This is all in an effort to level the playing field, so to speak, so US buyers won't/can't get better deals from the EU and Australian buyers can't/won't get better deals buying from Asia or the US. It's all about pricing parity. Sounds a lot like price fixing but it is a subtle difference in that we are talking about identical products from the same manufacturer, sold into different markets. It's all about price protection, not fixing. Most of the complaints came from US dealers being underpriced by EU and Asian competitors.

What you are seeing is the usual dumping of product once the channel is full of new product. Di2 prices still remain high, especially for Dura-Ace. Ultegra 6770 is old, its 10-Speed everything is going 11-Speed so it makes sense that retailers are dumping all their 10-Speed stuff as Shimano pushes them toward selling 11-Speed gear.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 9:57 am 
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Starter wrote:
glepore wrote:
...coupled with software that makes 6870 replacements partially incompatible leads me to believe that something nefarious is going on with big S...

In the not-so-distant future I predict "jailbroken" groupsets popping up... Hacks that circumvent manufacturer's intentions as far as mixing current and older generations... Or possibly to even mix-and-match different manufacturers entirely. Imagine when SRAM, Shimano, and Campy all have wireless systems... The only thing that would be incompatible would be the software, which can be rewritten...

This will take some doing, as hacking a bicycle shifting system is not a high priority in the hacking community, as much as we may want it to be. Also without signing an NDA, Shimano does not publish its communication protocol. A key place to start if you were to reverse engineer the firmware. Snooping will get you useful info also, but I don't think there is anyone out there that is doing anything significant with Di2 firmware code. Heck Shimano doesn't even do much with it and I rank them right up their with Samsung for lack of support and then lack of documentation when they finally do support something.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:10 pm 
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Location: Pa USA
WheresWaldo wrote:

What you are seeing is the usual dumping of product once the channel is full of new product. Di2 prices still remain high, especially for Dura-Ace. Ultegra 6770 is old, its 10-Speed everything is going 11-Speed so it makes sense that retailers are dumping all their 10-Speed stuff as Shimano pushes them toward selling 11-Speed gear.


I understand the price protection thing, I guess its driven by currency fluctuations as much as anything.

Its not, however, just the 10 spd stuff going cheap-the 10spd stuff isn't even available as replacement parts in the aftermarket. New 6870 full groups are going for $970 in the US (Competitive Cyclist and others) and around 1100 in Eu.

Edit-just realized the 970 groups were sans battery and cables...my bad.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:30 pm 
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WheresWaldo wrote:
Starter wrote:
glepore wrote:
...coupled with software that makes 6870 replacements partially incompatible leads me to believe that something nefarious is going on with big S...

In the not-so-distant future I predict "jailbroken" groupsets popping up... Hacks that circumvent manufacturer's intentions as far as mixing current and older generations... Or possibly to even mix-and-match different manufacturers entirely. Imagine when SRAM, Shimano, and Campy all have wireless systems... The only thing that would be incompatible would be the software, which can be rewritten...

This will take some doing, as hacking a bicycle shifting system is not a high priority in the hacking community, as much as we may want it to be. Also without signing an NDA, Shimano does not publish its communication protocol. A key place to start if you were to reverse engineer the firmware. Snooping will get you useful info also, but I don't think there is anyone out there that is doing anything significant with Di2 firmware code. Heck Shimano doesn't even do much with it and I rank them right up their with Samsung for lack of support and then lack of documentation when they finally do support something.

I'd be shocked if the software was much more complex than your average digital sports watch... We're talking about cycling component manufacturers, after all.

I'd assume the coding for Di2, EPS, and the upcoming SRAM system were farmed out, and I'd further assume whoever did the gig wrote a relatively simplistic code... They were most likely given a set of criteria where "uncomplicated" and "easy for non-techs to trouble-shoot" topped the list... I can't imagine any of the big three supplementing their regular support personnel with an entire IT team.

Also, we're not talking about phones where clones are a real issue. Nobody clones mechanical groupsets, after all... Why would someone start cloning e-groupsets? The only worry the manufacturers will realistically have in terms of someone jailbreaking the code is exactly what we're discussing... cross-compatibility and mixing-and-matching. And if they were really worried about that, Shimano and SRAM would have put an end to the near-perfect compatibility of their mechanical groups years ago.

This all points to relatively simple codes... There's just no need to make it so complex. I don't think we need the attention of the hacking community at large to hack e-groupsets, just one decent coder who happens to cycle and has the initiative...

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:40 pm 
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The code will be a simple on/off structure with identifiers to mark each component type. The thing I hate with all of this price protection is that again those of us in Australia will be gouged 20+% more for the exact same product because of international shipping restrictions....

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Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:40 pm 


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:06 am 
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Location: Sierra Foothills, California USA
Microshift. :thumbup:


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