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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:17 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:52 pm
Posts: 17
Hey all, been having a few difficulties with the updated 2015 version of SR11. Before I go into details of the problem, here's what I have:

2007 Cervelo R3 (54cm)
2015 SR11 RD, FD, shifters
2014 SR11 52/36
Wheels MFG replacement RD hanger (supposedly way stiffer than OEM)
SRAM Red 11-25
Shimano Ultegra 11-28

Frame was used (but barely) when I bought it this past fall, all SR stuff was brand new. Installed with brand new cables, does not have internal routing.

Rear shifting is far from perfect which I have determined to be the distance from upper RD pulley to cassette teeth. The B screw is tightened all the way. On the 11-25 the spacing is right about 10mm-11mm and with the 11-28 it's at about 7.5mm. Campy states 5-7mm is required. Indexing is dead nuts on. I usually run the 11-25 cassette but for trainer duty I've put the 11-28 on (different set of wheels). It's very obvious that shifting suffers tenfold with the 11-25 and is extremely frustrating.

Since the B adjuster on the pulley cage is tightened all the way, how can I get the pulley to sit higher on the 11-25? I can always mill a new RD hanger at work but being I dropped so much damn money on SR, I'm fully expecting to have SR tuned perfectly without having to redesign parts to make it work.

I have done some research and it appears that there are two different pivot spring positions, however I cannot remove the C clip to remove the hanger mounting bolt to check the position of the spring (there is no slot for a screwdriver to get into to pry clip off). I've also read that the bolt is two puece, however there is absolutely no way I can get it separated (the bolt has both t25 ends, there is no other tool to use to remove it).

Maybe there's something I'm overlooking, but can anyone give me some help here?


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:52 pm 
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Location: Welland, Ontario
just a few thoughts:

I'm surprised a couple of mm more clearance would cause massive problems.

Was the alignment checked? Just because it's new does not mean it is aligned.

Is the frame/hanger combo within Campy hanger specs?

I understand that in addition to the traditional Campy "H" screw, the 2015's also have a "B" screw. To which one are you referring?

What exactly is the shifting problem?

Who did the install?

_________________
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 6:02 pm 
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I think if you are in pursuit of absolute perfection then you should use a Campagnolo cassette and chain. I would be hesitant to blame Campy when you are mixin' and matchin'...

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 6:13 pm 
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Posts: 163
Location: Kaiserslautern, DE
I run campy 11 with ultegra cassettes with zero noticiable difference. I doubt that is your problem.

My first check as mentioned would be a bent derailleurs hanger or a bad derailleurs itself.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 6:46 pm 
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Also, 2007 Cervelos have very short chainstays, 395mm if I remember correctly. They finally changed that and I think they are all at least 405mm now, which is the minimum chainstay length spec'd by Campy. Not saying this is your issue here, but it's one of the things that might be contributing to your compromised shifting issues.
And you are going about removing the cage assembly from the derailleur incorrectly. You do not remove the c-clip. You unscrew the 25mm torx bolts, but be careful to keep pressure on the cage assembly as there is a strong spring in there that will kind of want to do bad things to you :). If you haven't done it before, it might be wise to take it to someone who has. There are actually three different positions for that spring, (there used to be two in 2009 but the they changed it to three to accommodate the new larger 29 tooth cassette introduced in 2010 I believe). Anyway, yes, you can play with the position of the spring and that might help enable you to get the pulleys a little closer to the cassette but I really doubt that's your problem here. I've set up campy drive trains that have more than the 5-7mm space you're referring to and it still shifted fine.
What would be a really useful troubleshooting exercise would be to borrow a wheel with 11/25 or 12/25 Campy 11sp cassette on it and set that up to see if you have the same issues. And what chain are you using, Campy?... or something else. Like @Rmerka said above, when you're mixin' and matchin' it makes it a lot harder to source the problem.

The "new" screw on the Campy 2015 rear derailleur comes from the factory all the way backed out. As far as I can tell it would be used in cases where the rear derailleur hanger positions the derailleur very far forward relative to Campy's ideal specs, and turning it would pull the whole derailleur back a bit. But this would probably increase the distance you are talking about, not decrease it. I've yet to come across an install where that screw needs to be touched.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 7:26 pm 
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Posts: 272
Location: UK
I would agree with above. We've installed plenty of Campy and no issues if all set up correctly.

Campag cassette and chain works best. Shimano and sram work, but don't expect perfection. I'd say good enough for trying a set of loaner wheels or emergency fix but not for everyday/race use if wanting SR performance.

Check hanger alignment. As above, a new hanger isn't always a guarantee as it relies on the dropout putting it in the right place. I would concur though that the wheels manufacturing hanger usually gives a far better shift than stock cervelo once correctly aligned - much stiffer!

To get the jockeys closer, the B screw should be backed off, not all the way in. The H-screw may need tightening though.

see http://www.campagnolo.com/media/files/035_260_Technical%20manual%20-%20Mechanical%20units%20rear%20derailleur%20-%20Campagnolo_Rev01_02_15.pdf

Incidentally, I've swapped between 12-27, 12-29, and 11-25 with no adjustments and no loss in shift quality. It may be that the gap, although not perfect, is incidental, and the problem is elsewhere, e.g. cable drag from imperfect outer finishing.

Rear housing too short? This can add extra drag plus pull the mech back - i.e. further away from the cassette.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:07 am 
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Location: Welland, Ontario
OP hasn't been back but I can add a few comments as an amateur to the pros' who have responded.

Firstly OP is obsessing about jockey clearance when clearly that's not the cause of whatever problem he has.

Don't try to take apart a brand new RD, that's just stupid.

Campy's settings are normally good out of the box. For years I had never touched the "H" screw until the 29T cassettes showed up.

OP, your problem is most likely either poor alignment or cabling hangup.

If those can be eliminated, then there are other possibilities.

_________________
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 4:53 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm
Posts: 527
Toe things have tripped me up with 11 speed. 1) A loose derailleur hanger. Even though it is clamped by the skewer, it made shifting erratic enough to drive me crazy for a while. 2) I put a small kink in the cable when threading it through the ergo lever because it's hard to route it through the white insert. I think this created a small amount of drag.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 8:07 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:26 pm
Posts: 130
I had the same issue(s) with 2015 Revolution (Record and Chorus). As the OP, my wrench believed the issue to be pulley to cassette distance. This he was not able to correct. However, three other adjustments improved but did not lead to perfect shifting:

Chain swap from Record to KMC.
Longer chain as bike has 8mm bb drop.
Slight misalignment of RD hanger corrected.

My RD cable was also slightly kinked on install but no one seems to believe that would cause any detectable drag.

Ironically, and contrary to a post above, a 6800 cassette had the smoothest shifting.

Anyhoo, I learned to deal with the bad shifting by holding the lever a half beat longer, literally guiding the chain up the cassette. Before that I ranted/pleaded for guidance here:
http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2 ... 42108.html


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 4:06 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:20 pm
Posts: 202
Location: Northwest Iowa
So, I'm finally back in the market after drooling over Rotor Uno and then seeing real world pics and coming to my senses... eek! I think I'll like the "one lever one purpose" of Campy. My question is, would you guys jump on good deals through ebay on first gen 11sp Campy or is the 2015 latest version the bees knees? I'm tired of the crappy shifting issues of Ultegra 6700, I'm always adjusting the RD it seems.

Sorry if I hijacked this thread.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 5:07 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:38 pm
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Location: Welland, Ontario
If looking for a Campy group my advice is:

Always check Ribble for pricing. If in the US, Texas Cyclesports as well. Over the past few years I have become disenchanted with eBay in general.

Chorus is identical mechanically to Record and SR and therefore represents the best value.

Personally I didn't need any more Campy stuff, so no experience with 2015, although I have to think there is an improvement if only minor.

Not to brag, but I built a 2014 Chorus bike for a friend 2 years ago, took care with the setup, and it has not needed a single adjustment since.

_________________
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 7:58 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:25 pm
Posts: 259
Location: Nashville!
beeatnik wrote:
Anyhoo, I learned to deal with the bad shifting by holding the lever a half beat longer, literally guiding the chain up the cassette. Before that I ranted/pleaded for guidance here:
http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2 ... 42108.html


Agree with needing to hold the lever slightly longer. I had Record and SR on an R3 and an S1, both pre-geometry change. in other words, very short chain stays as mentioned.

Since you are using SRAM and Shimano stuff, I am going to assume you are new to Campag? Cable friction and routing is more important than with Shimano. It is especially important with how the housing is oriented at the shifter. Smooth visual lines coming off those shifters onto the bars!

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 10:26 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:50 pm
Posts: 698
Location: FIN
bikerjulio wrote:
If looking for a Campy group my advice is:

Always check Ribble for pricing. If in the US, Texas Cyclesports as well. Over the past few years I have become disenchanted with eBay in general.

Chorus is identical mechanically to Record and SR and therefore represents the best value.

Personally I didn't need any more Campy stuff, so no experience with 2015, although I have to think there is an improvement if only minor.

Not to brag, but I built a 2014 Chorus bike for a friend 2 years ago, took care with the setup, and it has not needed a single adjustment since.


true , but you meant shifters only. rest is different ( CF instead of steel, bearings vs bushings.... )

My own experience Chorus'14 vs Record '15 ( record'14crank ) : imrovement is not minor. It's more than noticeable. On front shifting very noticeable. Like more new levers, but it's personal.. Don't like left lever 2-actions downshift . To choose between 2014 and '15 : no doubts 2015.

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Mark Twain


I can be wrong, and have plenty of examples for that ;)


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 11:09 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:43 pm
Posts: 1604
bikerjulio wrote:
Firstly OP is obsessing about jockey clearance when clearly that's not the cause of whatever problem he has.


I don't know about that. I've found jockey wheel clearance can have dramatic effects on SR (last gen) shifting performance. It's a very important part of the setup, IMO.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:13 am 
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Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:38 pm
Posts: 1535
Location: Welland, Ontario
wingguy wrote:
bikerjulio wrote:
Firstly OP is obsessing about jockey clearance when clearly that's not the cause of whatever problem he has.


I don't know about that. I've found jockey wheel clearance can have dramatic effects on SR (last gen) shifting performance. It's a very important part of the setup, IMO.


Read the OP again

Quote:
On the 11-25 the spacing is right about 10mm-11mm and with the 11-28 it's at about 7.5mm.


Quote:
I've put the 11-28 on (different set of wheels). It's very obvious that shifting suffers tenfold with the 11-25 and is extremely frustrating.


meaning that on all but the last sprocket the RD is exactly the same distance. away

sorry but maybe jockey distance magnifies misalignment problems. I just don't buy the "sensitive Campy" spin.

_________________
There's sometimes a buggy.
How many drivers does a buggy have?

One.

So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM


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