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 Post subject: Re: Rip off dogma
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:58 pm 
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there has been good article about cheap carbon on cyclingtipsblog

http://www.cyclingtipsblog.com/2011/08/ ... ted-equal/

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 Post subject: Re: Rip off dogma
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:34 am 
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Prend -- those guys stole 3D paintings or copied molds from Pinarello's OEM factory (by bribing staff/guards, etc.). It's clearly a crime to steal a competitor's trade secret/proprietary materials. Those guys typically have less than elementary education and simply are no where near having the artistic taste to come up with the delicious lines of Pinarellos. That's why many of them only have 3-4 sizes.

Branding is ONE thing, design is another. Granted you MIGHT legitimately (not sure) copy the shape by putting a real Prince in clay, but they did not do that. They stole 3D drawings instead.

We could debate on and on, but deep down we all know what the deal is. A rip off is a rip off, no matter how you cut it.

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Last edited by elviento on Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Rip off dogma
Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:34 am 


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 Post subject: Re: Rip off dogma
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:35 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:58 am
Posts: 797
Location: 604
Topic has been discussed at length over hundreds of pages of RBR forums. I am not going to try to win anyone over here but I think if these frames were 'murdering' people at a frequency greater than branded bikes we would be hearing about them. Sure it's cheesy buying a fake pina but personally I find it very irritating when I read fear mongering of failure based on speculation and stereotyping. And really do you think people are going to jail for buying 'counterfeit' bicycles? Only in America as they say...


http://forums.roadbikereview.com/bikes-frames-forks/chinese-carbon-thread-ebay-direct-version-5-0-a-241785.html


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 Post subject: Re: Rip off dogma
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:55 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:32 pm
Posts: 7411
Location: Los Angeles / Glendale, California
elviento wrote:
It's clearly a crime to steal a competitor's trade secret/proprietary materials.


I agree with you there.

elviento wrote:
A rip off is a rip off, no matter how you cut it.


That can be read and applied to many things. :wink:
And yes, I agree with you there as well.

petepeterson wrote:
Topic has been discussed at length over hundreds of pages of RBR forums. I am not going to try to win anyone over here but I think if these frames were 'murdering' people at a frequency greater than branded bikes we would be hearing about them. Sure it's cheesy buying a fake pina but personally I find it very irritating when I read fear mongering of failure based on speculation and stereotyping.


Yep! Definitely agree with you there. :thumbup:

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 Post subject: Re: Rip off dogma
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:28 am 
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Posts: 340
elviento wrote:
Prend -- those guys stole 3D paintings or copied molds from Pinarello's OEM factory (by bribing staff/guards, etc.). It's clearly a crime to steal a competitor's trade secret/proprietary materials. Those guys typically have less than elementary education and simply are no where near having the artistic taste to come up with the delicious lines of Pinarellos. That's why many of them only have 3-4 sizes.

Branding is ONE thing, design is another. Granted you MIGHT legitimately (not sure) copy the shape by putting a real Prince in clay, but they did not do that. They stole 3D drawings instead.

We could debate on and on, but deep down we all know what the deal is. A rip off is a rip off, no matter how you cut it.


Why do choose such strong words for things you don't know for sure? Maybe they bought 3 different frame sizes and scanned the frames with a 3D laser scanner...

I have never seen a carbon frame (both branded as no-name frames) fall apart without a crash. I have seen breaking front forks, without crashing them first. But these forks were from a big brand.

It is not that hard to make a carbon fiber frame with pressure bags. When you are fine with a 1200 gram frame for example fiber placement is not that critical.


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 Post subject: Re: Rip off dogma
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:59 pm 
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Posts: 378
elviento wrote:
Prend -- those guys stole 3D paintings or copied molds from Pinarello's OEM factory (by bribing staff/guards, etc.). It's clearly a crime to steal a competitor's trade secret/proprietary materials. Those guys typically have less than elementary education and simply are no where near having the artistic taste to come up with the delicious lines of Pinarellos. That's why many of them only have 3-4 sizes.

Branding is ONE thing, design is another. Granted you MIGHT legitimately (not sure) copy the shape by putting a real Prince in clay, but they did not do that. They stole 3D drawings instead.

We could debate on and on, but deep down we all know what the deal is. A rip off is a rip off, no matter how you cut it.


They couldn't have stolen the moulds or copied the drawings as they are subtely different. The most obvious is that they have a round seattube. Real Dogmas have an elliptical seat tube.


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 Post subject: Re: Rip off dogma
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:23 pm 
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Location: Estonia
maxima wrote:
If Pinarello weight is 20%+ out, I wonder they operates with a +/- 20% quality control system as well? :?


:thumbup:

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 Post subject: Re: Rip off dogma
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:31 pm 
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Location: UK
andyindo wrote:
They couldn't have stolen the moulds or copied the drawings as they are subtely different. The most obvious is that they have a round seattube. Real Dogmas have an elliptical seat tube.

It's been established they are based on the Prince but painted up as a Dogma hence the round seatpost.


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 Post subject: Re: Rip off dogma
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:01 pm 
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Location: London, UK
maxima wrote:
I find the the $6500 USD Dogma 1/2 just as a good a rip off - WHY? I was told that the Dogma 2 was lighter, was recommend to upgrade, got a chance to weight a new Frame + it's Aero Fork, it's actual 15g heavier than the Dogma 1 I owned. Well, its still 20% OFF target from the weight they advertised.

In either case, both replica and real life made in China/Taiwan Dogma with Italian are equally a rip off :mrgreen:

Either case, Replica or not, both are made in Far East. If Pinarello weight is 20%+ out, I wonder they operates with a +/- 20% quality control system as well? :?

Your Pinarello isn't over by 20% at all. Quote the weight of the bare frame only. That is without paint, hanger, seat collar and any other part they add after moulding.


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 Post subject: Re: Rip off dogma
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:37 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 9:41 pm
Posts: 724
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
maxima wrote:
I find the the $6500 USD Dogma 1/2 just as a good a rip off - WHY? I was told that the Dogma 2 was lighter, was recommend to upgrade, got a chance to weight a new Frame + it's Aero Fork, it's actual 15g heavier than the Dogma 1 I owned. Well, its still 20% OFF target from the weight they advertised.

In either case, both replica and real life made in China/Taiwan Dogma with Italian are equally a rip off :mrgreen:

Either case, Replica or not, both are made in Far East. If Pinarello weight is 20%+ out, I wonder they operates with a +/- 20% quality control system as well? :?


weight isn´t al, it´s also about handling, and property of the frame. it´s also a different in knowing what you are buying, and to be fooled that you buy something, when you in reality buy something else, that even can be dangerous for you. and when it comes to warranty, you think you will get a real pinarello, and it turns out, you will not, because the frame you bought is fake. that is to be rip off.

i can´t se why some peoples want to give a glare that they have something, that the does´t have


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 Post subject: Re: Rip off dogma
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:21 am 
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Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:37 am
Posts: 345
They did not quote bare frame weight when we brought the Dogma during the 2010/2011 season. Even the dstributor told us the weight stated was the overall frame. Was told the new Dogma2 aero fork is more aero & lighter. When i weight it, its 50grams more than the old fork of the same size bike. Disgusted :twisted:
Due to numerous complains, they stated bare frame only last several mths on their new catalogue..…;
ultimobici wrote:
maxima wrote:
I find the the $6500 USD Dogma 1/2 just as a good a rip off - WHY? I was told that the Dogma 2 was lighter, was recommend to upgrade, got a chance to weight a new Frame + it's Aero Fork, it's actual 15g heavier than the Dogma 1 I owned. Well, its still 20% OFF target from the weight they advertised.

In either case, both replica and real life made in China/Taiwan Dogma with Italian are equally a rip off :mrgreen:

Either case, Replica or not, both are made in Far East. If Pinarello weight is 20%+ out, I wonder they operates with a +/- 20% quality control system as well? :?

Your Pinarello isn't over by 20% at all. Quote the weight of the bare frame only. That is without paint, hanger, seat collar and any other part they add after moulding.


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 Post subject: Re: Rip off dogma
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:27 am 
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Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 2:36 am
Posts: 1168
Location: UK
Super_fast wrote:
Why do choose such strong words for things you don't know for sure? Maybe they bought 3 different frame sizes and scanned the frames with a 3D laser scanner...

I have never seen a carbon frame (both branded as no-name frames) fall apart without a crash. I have seen breaking front forks, without crashing them first. But these forks were from a big brand.

It is not that hard to make a carbon fiber frame with pressure bags. When you are fine with a 1200 gram frame for example fiber placement is not that critical.

From his previous posts it seems elviento does have good knowledge of what goes on in China.

The thing is if you buy one of these frames you do not know exactly what you are purchasing. When you buy a Cervelo, Scott, Pinarello (real) , Colnago etc you are paying for the name yes, but also R&D, quality control etc. How do you know these fakes don't have fibre glass sandwiched between the carbon or newspaper in the fork column to cut costs? They are just cheap rip-offs.


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 Post subject: Re: Rip off dogma
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:29 am 
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Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:37 am
Posts: 345
That's why I support my LBS which is authorized Pinarello Agent!

JensW wrote:
maxima wrote:
I find the the $6500 USD Dogma 1/2 just as a good a rip off - WHY? I was told that the Dogma 2 was lighter, was recommend to upgrade, got a chance to weight a new Frame + it's Aero Fork, it's actual 15g heavier than the Dogma 1 I owned. Well, its still 20% OFF target from the weight they advertised.

In either case, both replica and real life made in China/Taiwan Dogma with Italian are equally a rip off :mrgreen:

Either case, Replica or not, both are made in Far East. If Pinarello weight is 20%+ out, I wonder they operates with a +/- 20% quality control system as well? :?


weight isn´t al, it´s also about handling, and property of the frame. it´s also a different in knowing what you are buying, and to be fooled that you buy something, when you in reality buy something else, that even can be dangerous for you. and when it comes to warranty, you think you will get a real pinarello, and it turns out, you will not, because the frame you bought is fake. that is to be rip off.

i can´t se why some peoples want to give a glare that they have something, that the does´t have


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 Post subject: Re: Rip off dogma
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 8:21 pm 
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Location: Bristol uk
Some mug bought it for £1100

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 Post subject: Re: Rip off dogma
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 8:28 pm 
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Posts: 2454
Location: London, UK
markyboy wrote:
Some mug bought it for £1100
No different to the mugs who pay top dollar for Cervelos, Pinarellos & other high priced Chinese built frames.


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 Post subject: Re: Rip off dogma
Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 8:28 pm 


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