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 Post subject: Rip off dogma
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:07 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2004 10:19 am
Posts: 354
Location: Germany
I looks like the same frame, so to get this right n my head. Chinese manufacturers are making molds that look exactly like the Pina one but bake frames in those from carbon mixed with fiberglas?
Why ( well not me) dont we see more 'replicas' like specialized frames, i always only see these Pinas lately. To me it looks more as if these are genuine Pina frames coming out of the Pina plant through the backdoor. Major leak..


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 Post subject: Re: Rip off dogma
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:17 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:08 am
Posts: 2275
Location: Pedal Square
andyindo wrote:
Ok, so if I bought some of these frames and sold and labelled them as 'Peters bikes' I'd be ok then?


You would still be liable to purchasing a counterfeit product (where applicable).

On top of that you would also assume the risk of selling a product which might have not been manufactured with customary diligence, and thus potentially exposed to lawsuits from your customer, if they blame you of negligence (again, applicability depending on the respective legislation). Obviously, if you are living in EU/US, your EU/US-based customers would have a much easier legal leverage on you.

(I am not a lawyer.)

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Bikes: Raw Ti, 650b flatbar CX


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 Post subject: Re: Rip off dogma
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:20 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:08 am
Posts: 2275
Location: Pedal Square
jozuph wrote:
I looks like the same frame, so to get this right n my head. Chinese manufacturers are making molds that look exactly like the Pina one but bake frames in those from carbon mixed with fiberglas?
Why ( well not me) dont we see more 'replicas' like specialized frames, i always only see these Pinas lately. To me it looks more as if these are genuine Pina frames coming out of the Pina plant through the backdoor. Major leak..


No, it's not the same mold. There are subtle subtle differences, the seat post collar usually gives it away.

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Bikes: Raw Ti, 650b flatbar CX


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 Post subject: Re: Rip off dogma
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:29 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:32 pm
Posts: 8220
Location: Los Angeles / Glendale, California
wassertreter wrote:
andyindo wrote:
Ok, so if I bought some of these frames and sold and labelled them as 'Peters bikes' I'd be ok then?


You would still be liable to purchasing a counterfeit product (where applicable).


Please define counterfeit for me.

There are plenty of companies that provide the exact same handlebar under different brands. Pinarello themselves sells various components rebranded to "m0st" or however they spell m-o-s-t. Are those counterfeit products? They have the same shape as a product from another company, same dimensions... but they are not claiming to be from, say, Ritchey, or Token. Are they counterfeit then? By your accounts, Pinarello is selling counterfeit products. So is Planet-X and their brakes, apparently, because they were developed by another company clearly and they're selling those damn knock-offs for less than other people! :lol: (sarcasm)

These frames are different from the Pinarello frames: the seattube is completely different, smaller details are different. If they are sold as "Peter's Bikes" are they counterfeit, or do they happen to look similar to the Pinarello style? They come out of a factory without any reference to Pinarello: they have a model number and are blank. If they are labelled "Peter's Bikes," are they still counterfeits?

All those steel frames from the 80's? You know when top tubes were horizontal, tubes were lugged and headsets were 1" - certainly are large number of those 'famous brands' from the 80s were counterfeits of ... who exactly? Surely someone though, because they're all so similar. For all we know so many could have been produced in the same factory much like today with carbon frames. The only difference is that now we have the internet and communication tools that allows us to research and dig into the industry for information. In the 80s that undertaking was a bit more difficult and not often sought, it's been 30 years and not many records have been kept.

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 Post subject: Re: Rip off dogma
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:50 pm 
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Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2004 4:06 pm
Posts: 182
Location: New York City
I have no problem with frames made in Asia and that include ones branded such as Cervelo, real Pina, Specialized, etc. What i have issues with is passing it off as real why bother. They should just create a brand name of their own and let consumer decide but not call it Pina or Colnago that's just bad. I know when something is called a replicate it's fake but why bother that's just retarded. Give it a brand and market it. In terms of quality i have to admit there's a lot of poor quality stuff from China but you get what you pay for and this is not a bad thing. I for one would not want everything to be high quality and expensive. I rather have a choice than not. If you don't have the money to spent why wouldnt i buy one of these 2.5lb carbon bikes from China. Last week i was training for my first cross race of the season. My Colnago cracked in 2 places and this is a real Colnago not one from the motherland. I have 3 Colnagos 2 C50 one cross and one road. I also have a EPS. I'm having my sponsor shop deal with them. I hope they make good to a loyal customer and replace it. I'll report back.


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 Post subject: Re: Rip off dogma
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:58 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:32 pm
Posts: 8220
Location: Los Angeles / Glendale, California
Stephen you should add that in to the bustedcarbon website. http://www.bustedcarbon.com/
People tend to forget that brand names are also susceptible to j.r.a breaks, it doesn't matter how much it cost to buy.

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 Post subject: Re: Rip off dogma
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:29 pm 
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Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2004 4:06 pm
Posts: 182
Location: New York City
prendrefeu wrote:
Stephen you should add that in to the bustedcarbon website. http://www.bustedcarbon.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
People tend to forget that brand names are also susceptible to j.r.a breaks, it doesn't matter how much it cost to buy.


Thanks I will. I do want to give Colnago a chance to right the situation. I've been a Colnago owner for a long time and I still love their products. I even told the store manager that if this outcome is favorable put me down for a 2012 C59.


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 Post subject: Re: Rip off dogma
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:05 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:08 am
Posts: 2275
Location: Pedal Square
prendrefeu wrote:
wassertreter wrote:
andyindo wrote:
Ok, so if I bought some of these frames and sold and labelled them as 'Peters bikes' I'd be ok then?


You would still be liable to purchasing a counterfeit product (where applicable).


Please define counterfeit for me.

Knowingly purchasing counterfeit products is illegal in some legislations. If it says pinarello but isn't, and you knowingly buy it, it's against the law in some places.

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Bikes: Raw Ti, 650b flatbar CX


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 Post subject: Re: Rip off dogma
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:13 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:32 pm
Posts: 8220
Location: Los Angeles / Glendale, California
wassertreter wrote:
prendrefeu wrote:
wassertreter wrote:
andyindo wrote:
Ok, so if I bought some of these frames and sold and labelled them as 'Peters bikes' I'd be ok then?


You would still be liable to purchasing a counterfeit product (where applicable).


Please define counterfeit for me.

Knowingly purchasing counterfeit products is illegal in some legislations. If it says pinarello but isn't, and you knowingly buy it, it's against the law in some places.


I agree with your last statement, but I'm still waiting for an answer in regards to your first statement that it is purchasing a counterfeit product when it is not saying "Pinarello," which andyindo asked. You cleverly edited out the portion of my post which questions your argument, stated above, that a bike branded completely differently but looking like another brand is a counterfeit. NONE of these bikes leave the mould saying "Pinarello". Any person can buy a lot of blank frames and relabel them as "Peters Bikes" - and by your first statement you are saying those are still counterfeit, even if they were never branded as "Pinarello" to the consumer?

Again, define counterfeit.

Still waiting.

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Last edited by prendrefeu on Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Rip off dogma
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:20 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:08 am
Posts: 2275
Location: Pedal Square
prendrefeu wrote:
I agree with your last statement, but I'm still waiting for an answer in regards to your first statement that it is purchasing a counterfeit product when it is not saying "Pinarello," which andyindo asked. You cleverly edited out the portion of my post which questions your argument, stated above, that a bike branded completely differently but looking like another brand is a counterfeit.


I don't think of that act as much as counterfeit, as possibly infringing on the original manufacturer's intellectual property.

If the original manufacturer is rather low on intellectual property, and makes good business with you rebadging his products, chances are they will not care.

Again, I am not a lawyer, and pretty much on my limits of my english language knowledge here.

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Bikes: Raw Ti, 650b flatbar CX


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 Post subject: Re: Rip off dogma
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:22 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:22 pm
Posts: 470
Location: Bristol uk
What i cant get my head around, is the huge profit this guy is trying to make.
What you can buy for £479 and he is asking £1800
Then imo he is ripping some guy off who thinks he is getting the real thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Rip off dogma
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:26 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:32 pm
Posts: 8220
Location: Los Angeles / Glendale, California
If only there was a way to contact potential buyers and point them to the sites where they can simply purchase at-cost? :wink:

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Exp001 || Other projects in the works.


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 Post subject: Re: Rip off dogma
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:48 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:08 pm
Posts: 1365
the thing is ,it states clearly its a replica so if you buy one you know what your buying ,,,i know it does not feel right but to be honest most of the top end frames are now made in asian countrys and i can tell you as i have a friend whose a dealer and hes seen some big name bikes [you know the ones ] that are now manufactured in china without there paint and some have had newspaper stuffed in the tubes ,and the paint work covering some poor poor workmanship ,,,the big name bike companies are clever because what was once the norm, ie we are an american bike company and all our bikes are made here in our own factory ,,now the manufacturing process is in asia they then can charge huge amounts of money for a bike that is virtually the same as a asian manufacturered bike but its going to cost you, ie a cervelo rc5 $7000 for a frame that is usa made ,as good as it maybe is its not that good ,,,,,,we are being ripped off people


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 Post subject: Re: Rip off dogma
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:12 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:49 pm
Posts: 1590
Location: Near Horgen, Switzerland
wassertreter wrote:
jozuph wrote:
Why ( well not me) dont we see more 'replicas' like specialized frames, i always only see these Pinas lately. To me it looks more as if these are genuine Pina frames coming out of the Pina plant through the backdoor. Major leak..


Unlikely. We see those 'replica' frames branded as Pinarellos because Pinarellos are the most expensive / exclusive, so offer the largest potential for profits.

And the reason the 'replicas' are not exact replicas is only becuase they took the mould off the Prince when it was the top model, then painted the bike as a Dogma again to maximise profits.


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 Post subject: Re: Rip off dogma
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:32 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:37 am
Posts: 345
I find the the $6500 USD Dogma 1/2 just as a good a rip off - WHY? I was told that the Dogma 2 was lighter, was recommend to upgrade, got a chance to weight a new Frame + it's Aero Fork, it's actual 15g heavier than the Dogma 1 I owned. Well, its still 20% OFF target from the weight they advertised.

In either case, both replica and real life made in China/Taiwan Dogma with Italian are equally a rip off :mrgreen:

Either case, Replica or not, both are made in Far East. If Pinarello weight is 20%+ out, I wonder they operates with a +/- 20% quality control system as well? :?


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