95kg rider, light clinchers - Custom vs $2000 prebuilt?

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
RedRacer
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by RedRacer

I need to build a new pair of light-weight wheels for general riding and climbing and am considering two different routes.

The my existing Tune Mig/Mag hubs (24/28) laced to Stan's ZTR Alpha 340 (355g) rims and Vittoria Open Corse Evo CX clincher tires.

Since I want a very stiff and strong build, would I be better off with Sapim CX-Ray or DT Aerolite spokes? I think they are approx the same weight but is one spoke stiffer or stronger than the other? Should I stay away from bladed spokes and just use double-butted? Due to my fitness ;) and the terrain I ride, typical ride averages are rarely above 20mph so aero isn't very important!

Regardless of which spokes I choose I need a good wheel builder to assemble everything. Who is the go-to person in North America for precision wheel building?


OR


I am starting to lean towards Option B, which is to buy a new Mavic R-Sys SL wheelset, or something similar. This route is going to cost me a lot more than building the Tune/ZTR set! Are these Mavic "wonder wheels" going to be far stiffer, stronger and faster than my home-built set? I think both sets should come in around ~1300g.

*More info added on Page 2. After reading your feedback and doing more research I am strongly leaning towards buying some factory-built wheels.*
Last edited by RedRacer on Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:56 am, edited 4 times in total.

by Weenie


HillRPete
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by HillRPete

You're probably better off going 28/32 with Stan's. 8 spokes and nips don't weigh a whole lot, and if aero isn't a huge concern either it's an easy call to be better safe than sorry. Most people here seem to be using CX-Rays and I've certainly not had problems with them either.

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sugarkane
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by sugarkane

they are nearly the same spokes.... the black on the aerolites is a nicer finish than the xrays, thats the biggest difference between em

RedRacer
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by RedRacer

sugarkane wrote:they are nearly the same spokes.... the black on the aerolites is a nicer finish than the xrays, thats the biggest difference between em


Good to know :thumbup: I have CX-Rays laced in another set of wheels and the black finish is pretty ho-hum.

Re the spoke count, I already own the Tune hubs so I am stuck with the 24/28 spoke count. FWIW, I ride "light" for a 95kg guy and rarely break or bend stuff. Having said that I do want stiff wheels for climbing.

clarkson
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by clarkson

I've built lots of wheels with both, and have yet to notice a difference between them. My recommendation would be whatever you can get a deal on...

grover
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by grover

As mentioned, if you want black go with the Aerolites. If silver, whatever is cheaper. In function you can't split them.

As far as spokes and wheel stiffness go. The heavier the spokes the stiffer the wheel, it's all about mass. A smarter person than I may provide the maths for you. The tension just has to be high enough that spokes don't fully detension under load (any good wheelbuilder will avoid this)

Personally, if I'm using bladed spokes it's so that I can get up to the desired tension and be sure I've avoided any wind-up during the build (think low spoke count deep carbon wheels)...and if the person believes there'll be an aerodynamic advantage.

Seeing as you are building general riding wheels I'll give you the example of my general riding wheels. Dura-ace 7900 hubs, Velocity Aerohead rims. I used DT Swiss Revolution spokes in the front and non-drive rear. These are the same weight as CX-Rays and Aerolites (the aerolite is a revolution that has been stamped). Bladed weren't required as I was confident in avoiding wind-up at the tensions required. I used DT Swiss Competition spokes on the drive side rear. I wasn't confident I could avoid wind-up using Revos at the tension required on the drive side. I could have used Aerolites but the Comps being heavier added a little stiffness, avoided the funny half bladed/half round look, were MUCH cheaper.

Others may have a different opinion but I'd say something similar would suit your build well and save you a lot of money. Bladed spokes really aren't required on your build. Being a bit heavier than I (75kg) I'd go Competitions drive side rear, SuperComps non-drive rear, and given the low 24 spoke count on the front Competitions on the front as well.

maxxevv
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by maxxevv

Since you already own the hubs, then it would be ideal to make the best of it. Properly build, 24/28 is enough for your size if you do not overly rough handle the wheels like jumping off kerbs and doing cross races with them !

Aerolites and CX-Rays are very similar. Only reason most see more of the latter is because of the significant price differences. That being said, I've not seen anyone encounter any issues with the Aerolites that are properly build. But the same cannot be said of Sapim spokes. I had to change out the spokes on both sets of my Reynolds DV46 wheels some years back due to breaking of spokes !

As for build, perhaps to maximise benefits of weight, "aeroness" strength, build 2-cross for the front with either of the aero spokes, Aero spokes on the non-drive side, DT-Competition on the drive side also 2-cross or even 3-cross. Add in brass nipples especially for the rear drive side of weight and strength are concerns of equal magnitude.

There are aero-spoke holders that keep those spokes from winding up during build. In fact, you can prevent wind-up in aero spokes with this tool, but there are no real tools to do the same with round spokes though ...

Hope it will be of help. :beerchug:

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StuTheWeak
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by StuTheWeak

Maybe tubbies? Think tubby rims are stiffer for a given weight/spoke count, but what do i know.

Niobium clinchers are uber-strong, but strong and stiff are not always one in the same. Stiff has to do with geometry of the hubs (wide flange spacing), spoke count and rim design. By rim design I mean width and mass. Wider rims are usually stiffer...and more material adds to the stiffness. Light rims are always narrow and low on mass...which more times than not are not stiff.

Though a 400g tubby rim should be stiffer than a 400g clincher. Just an idea. If it was me and needed clinchers I'd go IRD Cadence with a VSR rim in back. I wouldn't loose any sleep with those rims on my bike, but they would add 80g to the wheelset vs Stans.
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RedRacer
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by RedRacer

Great info guy :beerchug:

I know the R-Sys wheels had some issues early on, but I think they have been cured and at 1295g the R-Sys SL likely offers the best blend of strength, light-weight and stiffness @ $2000 or below. At the average speeds I tend to ride I don't think their aero disadvantage is going to cost me much.

Am I dreaming to think that I can build a pair of sub-1300g clinchers using my Tune 24H/28H MigMag (70g/190g) hubs that will rival the stiffness of an engineered wheel set (R-Sys, Fulcrum, A.C., etc) :noidea:

Will lacing up a pair of Stan's ZTR 340s with DT Aerolite 2-cross front and 2-cross rear (non-DS) and DT Competition 3-cross (DS) get me anywhere close?

Alloy nipple recommendations?

HakanC
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by HakanC

RedRacer wrote:Tune hubs (24/28) will be used along with Stan's ZTR Alpha 340 (355g) rims and Vittoria Open Corse Evo CX clincher tires.

Since I want a very stiff and strong build, would I be better off with Sapim CX-Ray or DT Aerolite spokes?


As others have allready pointed out I recomend building the rear wheel with stiffer spokes on the right side.
Stiffer spokes = heavier spokes, DT Comp is a great choice.

Ypsylon
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by Ypsylon

RedRacer wrote:
Regardless of which spokes I choose I need a good wheel builder to assemble everything. Who is the go-to person in North America for precision wheel building?



I don't think there is one single person, but from what I read on forums over the last couple of years, for NA you can't really go wrong with Ron Ruff, Eric, or Troy, who is with Fair Wheel Bikes now.
"Nothing compares to the simple pleasures of a bike ride," said John F. Kennedy, a man who had the pleasure of Marilyn Monroe.

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sugarkane
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by sugarkane

I'm 85 kgs and have a set of hyperclincher wheels built with stans and extralite SP hubs..
It's a 24/28 wheelset and to be honest the front wheel is totally ace. the rear lacks stiffness..
Using different spokes won't change a thing for you either. The stans alpha rims can't handle the kind of tension you'll need for a stiff rear wheel. I get spoke/re-mech rub in the 25 cog
It isn't a very stiff wheel..
You could lace a kinlin 270 in the back and use the stans up front..
That would give you the stiff rear you need and still a super light front, if you remove the stickers from the stans they would look matchy matchy..

The aerolights/Xrays are the spokes you need. Using non bladed spokes won't give you a stiffer wheel. You need to build the rear with more tension than the stans rims can manage. Too much tension will pull the nipples through the rim.. Not ideal.
The hubs you have built to enve 1.25 tubbies would be super light and stiff enough to blow yOur mind!!
The kinlin rear option would totally do the job and only add 100g to the build.

I've been thinking about rebuilding my SP hubset to enve 1.25s but I might just sell the wheels and buy some zipp 202s :)

HakanC
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by HakanC

sugarkane wrote:The stans alpha rims can't handle the kind of tension you'll need for a stiff rear wheel.


Sorry, but higher spoke tension in a wheel will not affect the stiffness of the wheel.
The stiffness of a metal is not dependent on its tension.

You can also check out these wheel stiffness measurements,
here You can see that wheel stiffness is constant until the spoke tension is way to low.
Image
From: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel/index.htm
(You have to scroll down a bit)

And AFAIK the Tune-hubs have a 1000N spoke tension limit.

But stiffer spokes on the right side of the rear wheel will make for att stiffer (rear-)wheel.
(But of course it may not be stiff enough)


/Håkan
SWEDEN

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sugarkane
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by sugarkane

HakanC wrote:
sugarkane wrote:The stans alpha rims can't handle the kind of tension you'll need for a stiff rear wheel.


Sorry, but higher spoke tension in a wheel will not affect the stiffness of the wheel.
The stiffness of a metal is not dependent on its tension.

You can also check out these wheel stiffness measurements,
here You can see that wheel stiffness is constant until the spoke tension is way to low.
Image
From: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel/index.htm
(You have to scroll down a bit)

And AFAIK the Tune-hubs have a 1000N spoke tension limit.

But stiffer spokes on the right side of the rear wheel will make for att stiffer (rear-)wheel.
(But of course it may not be stiff enough)


/Håkan
SWEDEN



I might be wrong about the spokes. :) but the alpha rims are way to soft for a big boy to run in the back.. Mine is in no way Stiff enough and I have a friend who's 75kgs who has pulled nipples through on a 24h wheelset..
They are very nice wheels but they are not sterdy.. Using a kinlin 270 would build a better wheelset for a heavy guy.. I'd still totally run the alpha in the front

by Weenie


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StuTheWeak
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by StuTheWeak

Think at the end of the day...it's a compromise. Think somewhere someone had listed weights and stiffness of factory wheelsets. If memory serves me uber-light/uber-stiff wheelsets were always carbon.
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