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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 10:18 am 
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I've always been interested in the discussion of Lightweight vs. ADA, and I have always thought that ADA were better overall but were at least $1000 more expensive. Just by looking at the specs for the two different wheelsets one could conclude that ADA are better ( www.ada.prorider.org for ada, www.lightweightwheels.com (maintained by rbs bikes, www.rbsbikes.co.uk ) for an effective overview of lightweight). ADA's appear lighter by a considerable amount, maybe stiffer according to ADA's claims, and Cees Beers says that he tested the round spokes vs. Lightweight's bladed and said that the round ones came out better ("Speaking of spokes...I'm often asked about the aerodynamic benefits of my round, kevlar-wrapped, carbon-fiber spokes. Initially I used flat spokes, thinking they were more aerodynamic, but our testing showed otherwise. " from http://www.ada.prorider.org/athens.htm ). And as far as this whole thing about what is the original, 1. WHO CARES, WHAT IS THE BEST IS WHAT WE SHOULD BE WORRIED ABOUT and 2. I've heard from several places, most notably velonews 2002 tour tech section (right now velonew's site isnt working so I cant give a direct link), that Cees Beers was in a joint venture with Dierl and Obermayer, but D+O refused to change the design when Beers thought they were unsafe, so Beers split from them and now D+O are claiming theyre the original and Beers is just a worse copy when in fact it may be that D+O's version is just the predecessor to Beer's. The only link I can find to this right now is http://www.slowtwitch.com/mainheadings/ ... bolts.html , at the bottom, but ive heard this from other places. And Cees Beers also claims that Lance Armstrong came to him first and asked him for a pair of wheels for free, but Beers refused and so Lance went to D+O and they gave him a free pair. Oh and for that german tour magazine and their stiffness, after reading over the translation, I must say, it looks very (very, very) biased...they use some old media tricks in there that I know of to make the lightweight wheels look even better than they make them out to be (38nm rear 56nm front for ada stiffness as opposed to 71nm front 56nm rear lightweight stiffness, placing the lower # first makes the wheels look worse, thats the only example I can think of off the top of my head, I saw others). Plus, I mean its a german magazine, lightwieght wheels are german, homeland pride, happens in the USA with US bikes, I'm sure it can happen in Germany. Plus, this is the same magazine that claims that Lightweight wheels were the most aerodynamic in their testing, when John Cobb (has been Lance Armstrong's personal wind tunnel tester) tested them several times and concluded that Lightwieghts and ADA's were not much more aero than regular wheels (I think the exact drag amount was 0.376 lbs avg over a rangle of angles from 0 to 30 degrees, and 32 hole wheels were 0.405, for comparision, a zipp 404 was 0.191 and mavic cosmic carbones were similar to the zipps). I may sound awfully ADA-biased here, but mainly thats to counteract all this ADA-bashing I hear that may have no basis other than its what people hear. I really want to know the real story. From what I read of actual specs, it looks like ADA are better although more expensive. But what about someone (NOT tour magazine) thats actually ridden both? Anyone have actual riding experiences? And I'm sure this is whole thing is very poorly written and I apologize...its 4 in the morning and I'm probably typing like an idiot and I don't feel like revising. So, how bout those wheels?


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Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 10:18 am 


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 11:47 am 
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The Lightweight people's story about the whole affair can be read right on this very website,
http://weightweenies.starbike.com/articles.php?ID=57

You write "all this ADA-bashing I hear that may have no basis other than its what people hear."
But how do you explain that the only information sources pro-ADA you can name are what you heard from Cees Beers himself?

The tour-article:
At least "Tour" publishes figures... and if you put them in the right order, it still makes a 33% percent advantage. That is plenty!
And the test used is a fairly basic one, all you need is a weight, a slide gauge and a way to fix the wheel. I doubt it is faked - too easy to control.

Mind you, I don't think the ADAs are bad. If you rode them and didn't know how Lightweights feel, i am sure you would be enthusiastic. They are very light and reasonably stiff, par to most other aero wheels (Tune Olympic Gold etc) in fact. I only think the Lightweights are better - and way cheaper.

Martin,
happy customer (bout otherwise not related or involved) of Lightweight


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:12 pm 
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HawkMt210 wrote:
And Cees Beers also claims that Lance Armstrong came to him first and asked him for a pair of wheels for free, but Beers refused and so Lance went to D+O and they gave him a free pair.

Can you give me an URL for this statement?

Dierl & Obermayer never gave any wheel to a professional rider for free, they all had to pay the full price.

Johan Bruyneel phoned D+O and wanted to buy 2 wheelsets for Armstrong. Obermayer told him that this is impossible, because they have no wheelsets in stock and that Armstrong has to wait like everyone else.
But Bruyneel didn't peg away at and so he talked Obermayer round to pick give him at least one wheelset, which was meant for another customer. (normally they didn't do this)


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:24 pm 
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Florian - I don't really care bout the backstory behind either wheels, who did what, who rides what, etc....it really doesn't matter. I just posted all those (maybe true maybe not) things about the other side to the backstory becasue everyone else seems to care for some reason. If you ride a wheelset because 'oh well the competitor took the design and I feel bad for the original makers, the compeitor is evil' then all I can say is wow you got some issues to work out cuz ur what we like to call a tool of public relations...you're not paying for a company, you're paying for a wheelset. What I want is a comparision, not by tour magazine because 1. that seems like the only thing people refer to and 2. they still look biased....you dont review a wheelset claiming that its better cuz its the original. So who here has a pair of ADAs?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:32 pm 
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HawkMt210 wrote:
Plus, I mean its a german magazine, lightwieght wheels are german, homeland pride, happens in the USA with US bikes, I'm sure it can happen in Germany.

You'd be surprised how less "homeland pride" Germans have,
especially the Tour magazin:
if something isn't good, they put the finger in the wound, no matter where it comes from. And they're especially sadistic if their "own" products don't keep what they promise.

Besides the test from Tour there's also a test from an English cycling magazine, which came to the same results and conclusions.
And I guess you agree with me that English people aren't known to be very German-friendly at all? :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:44 pm 
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Do you know what English magazine it is? I'd be interested to see if tour's findings were backed up. All I really am saying with tour's results are that its just one result - you don't conclude that somethings right in a scientific experiment from one result., so why should you conclude lighweights are better from one magazine? And I don't mean to send any bad karma or anything, I just have seen all this bad stuff about ADA from basically statements that came from Dierl and Obermayer about how they're the originals, and I think that each wheel should be given a fair chance so that we, the consumer, can get the best product.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:45 pm 
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HawkMt210 wrote:
If you ride a wheelset because 'oh well the competitor took the design and I feel bad for the original makers, the compeitor is evil' then all I can say is wow you got some issues to work out cuz ur what we like to call a tool of public relations...

Well, I don't own any Lightweight wheelset.
I'm just following the Lightweight vs. ADA discussion since several years now.
Unlike ADA, D+O never did any PR.
There are plenty of comments from Cees Beers on the web, where he points out how much better his wheels are and that D+O copied his and that they're crap etc.
Now I wanted to know the point of view the other side, because they never spoke out about these things and so I made an interview with Mr. Obermayer. That's it.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:48 pm 
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Florian - I have no problems with any of that in all reality, with the interview done and all, but when people base their conclusions on a wheelset by things like 'adas sucks cuz theyre copies', which is what I've seen a lot of when I do a search for 'ada' on this board, then that's just weird/wrong. I'm looking for a (2nd) fair comparision other than tour's mayber fair maybe not comparision.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:57 pm 
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Florian wrote:
HawkMt210 wrote:
And Cees Beers also claims that Lance Armstrong came to him first and asked him for a pair of wheels for free, but Beers refused and so Lance went to D+O and they gave him a free pair.

Can you give me an URL for this statement?

Dierl & Obermayer never gave any wheel to a professional rider for free, they all had to pay the full price.

That's what i heard as well, from Mr. Obermayer himself. When i ordered my set he told me the story that he had delivered six (!) sets to Mario Cipollini (one or two weeks before the WM in Zolder) and somewhat amused told me how surprised Cipo was that he should actually pay the sets :-)

Martin


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:08 pm 
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HawkMt210 wrote:
Do you know what English magazine it is?

Unfortunately no more.
I found it during summer on the web via Google, but I forgot to bookmark it and now I can't find it anymore.
Maybe some of you UK Weight Weenies read this and can help us out?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:54 pm 
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I thought that I saw the name of the magazine somewhere on this board but I couldn't find it again, although for some reason I think it was pro cycling magazine. Also another thing, it appears to me that the wheels that tour measured may have been heavier than normal lightweights

(1)Lightweight:
V: 71,4 N/mm (505g)
H: 58,1 N/mm (756g)

Add those weights up and you get 1261 grams for the set. Maybe I'm wrong (actually, I'm probably wrong) but was this an abnormally stiff/heavy lightweight wheelset, or is this with skewers, or what? Anyways in any case, with what I've heard/seen from wind tunnel tests, and from the fact that lightweights/adas may not be that stiff, and the fact that there are now wire spoke wheels that are around the same weight ie spokes are replaceable in the event of a crash/breakage, im wondering if a wheel like the reynolds stratus dv-ul isnt actually a better wheel for most intents and purposes than these all-carbon creations that have mesmerized us since the mid-90's. For reynolds, I must say that I've heard theyre stiff, definetely aero, and durable to the point where you could probably ride them on most cobblestones. Anyways, just my thoughts.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 9:01 pm 
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try out some reynolds :lol: but you'll see
they are nothing compared to lightweight (even ada)
i rode both LW ADA
there is a difference
LW: stiffer, stronger
ADA: lighter, more comfortable, but not as stiff

LW normal weight is about 1250g

reynolds/zipp303 aren't as strong as LW/ADA
one cobblestone and your spokes are broken

LW/ADA don't break under that conditions
only a crash can cause unrepairable damage...

ciaooooooooooooooooo


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 9:05 pm 
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One of the famous pro CX rider Marc Gullickson rides with Reynolds Stratus for CX racing and he said in a interview that he didnt have any problem for 2 season racing and training on them.

Pretty impressive wheel i say, and his no small light guy. His 6'4" and weighs in the 180's.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 9:18 pm 
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HawkMt210 wrote:
Also another thing, it appears to me that the wheels that tour measured may have been heavier than normal lightweights

(1)Lightweight:
V: 71,4 N/mm (505g)
H: 58,1 N/mm (756g)

Add those weights up and you get 1261 grams for the set. Maybe I'm wrong (actually, I'm probably wrong) but was this an abnormally stiff/heavy lightweight wheelset, or is this with skewers, or what?

That's without skewers.
Claimed weight is 485/760 g for 20 spoke 700C wheels with 9s Shimano CrMo freehub (I guess that's what they tested).

About stiffness:
Cipollini feared that the rear wheel might not be stiff enough for him during sprints (brake pads touching the rim, too less power transfer, ...).
He asked Obermayer if he could make a rear wheel with more than 20 spokes for him, because he couldn't imagine that a full carbon wheelset with just 20 spokes withstands his riding style. Obermayer answered, that the rear wheel is more than stiff enough, even stiffer than most normal wheels, and that there's no need for more than 20 spokes.
Cipollini was not convinced, so he ordered just one wheelset.
And it seems he was more than satisfied after he got them, because he ordered more wheelsets again and again.


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Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 9:18 pm 


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 9:29 pm 
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HawkMt210 wrote:
I thought that I saw the name of the magazine somewhere on this board but I couldn't find it again, although for some reason I think it was pro cycling magazine. Also another thing, it appears to me that the wheels that tour measured may have been heavier than normal lightweights

(1)Lightweight:
V: 71,4 N/mm (505g)
H: 58,1 N/mm (756g)

Add those weights up and you get 1261 grams for the set. Maybe I'm wrong (actually, I'm probably wrong) but was this an abnormally stiff/heavy lightweight wheelset, or is this with skewers, or what?

at your service, two pics of mine on (swiss) scales. Dismounted the sprockets just for you :lol: (my rear wheel is 764g, little hard to read because of the flash)
the weights differ slightly. The front wheel comes in 12, 16 or 20 spokes (~10g difference) and the rear wheel can either have a Shimano steel freewheel, a Shimao Ti one or a Campy, Campy being the lightest.


Attachments:
File comment: Front wheel w/o skewers
front.jpg
front.jpg [ 81.79 KiB | Viewed 1245 times ]
File comment: rear wheel uncleaned and with lots of glue.
rear.jpg
rear.jpg [ 82.13 KiB | Viewed 1256 times ]
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