SRAM Red vs. Ultegra DI2

Back by popular demand, the general all-things Road forum!

Moderator: robbosmans

mrfish
Posts: 1749
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:49 pm
Location: Near Horgen, Switzerland

by mrfish

markrj wrote: It's very simple stepper motor technology.
Bicycle gear shifting is not rocket science.


No, it's a servo not a stepper motor. Stepper motors are constructed so that input pulses turn the motor coil by a known amount, whereas servos can run on bog standard DC motors, connected to a potentiometer which measures the position reached by the output arm and feeds back the position to the control electronics.

There are servos and servos though... ...the best ones run on DC coreless motors using digital power electronics to avoid any positioning errors. These are the sort of servos which cost £100 and are used to allow model helicopters to fly backwards at 50mph doing aerobatics with the tail locked in position. Likely a bike derailleur servo would have more in common with the helicopter swashplate servos which trade off a little bit of speed for a lot of torque. I would be surprised if you couldn't find a standard RC servo motor and electronics combination able to cover bike applications as they make literally hundreds of different sizes and types. Of course then you need to think about integrating it into the derailleur, waterproofing, driving it... which all makes it very non-standard, but the servo mechanics and electronics should be off-the-shelf.

But I will agree that the technology is not new and in principle shouldn't cost £££s.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



Zigmeister
Posts: 938
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:09 pm

by Zigmeister

If DI2 wasn't so darn expensive, and 300+ grams heavier than Red, I would likely switch to it. It's a solid technology.

But....I'm not sure why somebody has solved the ugly battery/logic unit mystery yet. Some kind of battery that lives inside, or is integrated into a seatpost or handlebars etc.. that you plug your power cord into a socket on the bike so the battery is hidden and aerodynamically irrelevant. The DI2 cables plug/attach to the seatpost/battery seemlessly. It solves the ugly battery hanging around on the bike syndrome and streamlines the aerodynamics/look overall. I know, there are all sorts of seatpost designs etc, but there could be a module that will fit pretty much any of them that could be made.

But, if needed, you could remove it in case it died altogether and unable to charge for a replacement.

I think I need to patent this idea and design to make some money. The first carbon seatpost with integrated DI2 battery and connectors..or something to that effect.

Shimano could easily design and make this, then market it as an optional setup for $300, carbon seatpost and battery. Or some enterprising company with the expertise.

User avatar
elviento
Posts: 1199
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:09 pm
Location: In the industry
Contact:

by elviento

Sh*t. I better go get a set then. :lol:

cl9k24la wrote:Di2 is for POSEURS.....
Fast falcons: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3mTPEuFcWk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
www.falcobike.com
Facebook: falcobikeglobal

User avatar
cnbky
Posts: 401
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:54 pm
Location: London

by cnbky

ahh the poseurs topicc...:D

for me, tried all 3, sram red works perfect......IF i had the option of a light di2 specific frame di2 ofcourse.

User avatar
eigner
Posts: 1004
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:36 am
Location: Denmark

by eigner

+ for Di2.
I have had Campagnolo SR 11 on my Pinarello, Sram Red on my TT bike and on my parlee z4 and DI2 on my Parlee z3. While none of the groups are bad, still nothing compares to Di2. Its so much easier to maintain and excellent shifting - always.
Current: Colnago CX Zero Di2 Disc, Cannondale F29 carbon3
Previous: Scott Plasma 3 premium, Parlee Z3SL, Parlee Z4, Argon18 E112, TREK TTX7.0, S-Works Transition, Pinarello F4:13

brightboy
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:58 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

by brightboy

markrj wrote:Bicycle gear shifting is not rocket science.


Then why is Campy taking sooooo long to get their electronic group to market.

I run Red on my bike and it works great, no complaints. I have also ridden Di2 a number of times on friend's bikes and I still can't believe how good the shifting is even when I know what to expect. To me the two groups are not comparable. Red is one of the best mech shifting sets you can buy, no question, but Di2 is on another level altogether. If they are the same price and you don't have any electronic hang-ups, get the UDi2, you will fall in love with it every time you ride.

As for those that speak of not wanting to be guinea pigs and waiting for the new tech to settle in, seems like it's already well and truly settled in.
Ridley Helium 2011 - SRAM Red - 4ZA Cirrus Pro C50s
Bianchi Infinito CV 2014 - SRAM Red 22 - Reynolds Assault SLG

dhendriksen
Posts: 125
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 1:54 pm

by dhendriksen

I run Dura Ace 7800 right now and have Di2 on order....I'm like a kid at christmas I'm so excited.

It might not be a popular thing to say on this forum, but the minimal weight gain isn't a big deal to me. I'm just excited for silky smooth shifting with NO MAINTENANCE other than cleaning.

bigcalves
Posts: 73
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:29 am
Location: Boulder, CO

by bigcalves

So far this whole thread has been about the shifting, but you are buying the whole group. So I think you need to consider that and what YOU like. I have owned Red for 2 years, got rid of it and I am currently on Di2. I think RED is over rated and I was happy to get rid of it. I liked the shifters and rear shifting, but the brakes just were not enough for me in the mountains of Colorado and the front shifting was subpar. It blows me away that SRAM has not updated it yet, especially with the issues with the front der., the chain, and cassette, most of which are not used by pros.

You need to consider what is best for you:

-the ergonomics of the shifter are different, what fits your hands best?
-the brakes are different in terms of power and feel, what works best for you?
-the front shifting is radically different, what do you think it better?
-obviously the weight is different and Ultegra Di2 is not even close.
-RED has ceramic bearings in the rear der and BB, Shimano does not.
-Ultegra Di2 looks a heck of a lot cleaner on a frame that is built for it. If not it can look pretty ghetto, with wires taped to your frame. Does that matter to you?

I doubt you can go wrong with either choice, but you need to get what works best for you, your frame, your preferences, and your ergonomics. Good luck and enjoy your new bike.

Zigmeister
Posts: 938
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:09 pm

by Zigmeister

I think everyone agrees in the industry that the Front shifting of DI2 is the best in the business. The rear, not so much, due to it being just a tad slower, and only jumping one at a time. You can't shift the same with DI2 as you can with Red on the rear. I can jump it 2-3 sprockets at a time with Red on the rear going up. But the inconsistent Red front shifting with the titanium cage has been annoying me lately I must say.

I'm personally thinking in the near future to run a new Ultegra DI2 setup using the FD/RD/Shifters with DuraAce cranks and DuraAce brakes. So you can get the electronic shifting, a bit more weight savings, plus the stiffest cranks on the market and better/lighter braking. Get the best of both worlds IMO. It is easy to find DuraAce cranks and brakes. You could probably put together an Ultegra DI2 FD/RD/Shifters, DuraAce Crank and Brakes and come in around the SRAM Red complete groupset pricing. That I could go for.

dhendriksen
Posts: 125
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 1:54 pm

by dhendriksen

Zigmeister wrote:I think everyone agrees in the industry that the Front shifting of DI2 is the best in the business. The rear, not so much, due to it being just a tad slower, and only jumping one at a time. You can't shift the same with DI2 as you can with Red on the rear. I can jump it 2-3 sprockets at a time with Red on the rear going up. But the inconsistent Red front shifting with the titanium cage has been annoying me lately I must say.

I'm personally thinking in the near future to run a new Ultegra DI2 setup using the FD/RD/Shifters with DuraAce cranks and DuraAce brakes. So you can get the electronic shifting, a bit more weight savings, plus the stiffest cranks on the market and better/lighter braking. Get the best of both worlds IMO. It is easy to find DuraAce cranks and brakes. You could probably put together an Ultegra DI2 FD/RD/Shifters, DuraAce Crank and Brakes and come in around the SRAM Red complete groupset pricing. That I could go for.


Yeah, I do plan on running Dura Ace Chain, cassette, and possibly brakes. I will run the Specialized crank with Ceramic Bearings. That's what I've been riding the past several years and don't have anything bad to say about it.

Zigmeister
Posts: 938
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:09 pm

by Zigmeister

dhendriksen wrote:
Zigmeister wrote:I think everyone agrees in the industry that the Front shifting of DI2 is the best in the business. The rear, not so much, due to it being just a tad slower, and only jumping one at a time. You can't shift the same with DI2 as you can with Red on the rear. I can jump it 2-3 sprockets at a time with Red on the rear going up. But the inconsistent Red front shifting with the titanium cage has been annoying me lately I must say.

I'm personally thinking in the near future to run a new Ultegra DI2 setup using the FD/RD/Shifters with DuraAce cranks and DuraAce brakes. So you can get the electronic shifting, a bit more weight savings, plus the stiffest cranks on the market and better/lighter braking. Get the best of both worlds IMO. It is easy to find DuraAce cranks and brakes. You could probably put together an Ultegra DI2 FD/RD/Shifters, DuraAce Crank and Brakes and come in around the SRAM Red complete groupset pricing. That I could go for.


Yeah, I do plan on running Dura Ace Chain, cassette, and possibly brakes. I will run the Specialized crank with Ceramic Bearings. That's what I've been riding the past several years and don't have anything bad to say about it.



I think that is a win situation. Get DI2 technology for the primary purpose, shifting, piece together the other bits to save some weight and money.

racewithwatts
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:10 am

by racewithwatts

If you could get them both for the same price, which one would you choose and why?

limba
Posts: 956
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2003 4:24 am

by limba

Di2 front shifting is incredible. Shockingly good. Any of the new groups rear shifting is great. I forget the exact number but RED will be a lot lighter. I bought Ultegra Di2 for cross bike instead of RED but I have a wonky left thumb.

User avatar
veganeric
Posts: 150
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2010 2:25 am
Location: MN

by veganeric

Red, because it's lighter and I like double tap shifting. The later being completely subjective, of course. However, if it was going on TT bike I'd go with Di2 since it can be operated from the extensions and base bars.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



2002SaecoReplica
Posts: 1925
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 10:02 pm
Location: Getting dropped

by 2002SaecoReplica

Team bikes this year we had a choice of Cannondale standard mod Evo's with either Sram Red or Ultegra Di2. I chose the Di2 one and after one ride I haven't thought twice about my decision. The shifting is just incredibly precise and perfect every time. The front derailleur shifting is spot on every time no matter what.

If, for whatever reason, you need to adjust your rear shifting you can do it while riding. Hold down the junction box button until it lights up red, your right hand shifter just became a barrel adjuster, adjust until it's perfect, hit the junction box button to turn red light off, and you've done all of this while still riding.

You will be able to upgrade to 11-speed with the switch of the new 11 speed junction box and a firmware update. You'll need 11-speed chain, cassette, and rings too obviously.

If you're worried about weight that's nothing a light pair of wheels can't fix.
- Zipp rims will break if you look at them too hard
- R-Sys wheels will spontaneously explode
- The ZG crankset will never, ever exist
- Everyone needs Lightweights, even if they're fat and old
- Parts actually made of metal are SO 10 years ago

Post Reply