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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:39 pm 
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Location: Aix en Provence
Does the R3 has an all carbon shell or there is an aluminum shell in there ?


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Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:39 pm 


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:00 pm 
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LionelB wrote:
Does the R3 has an all carbon shell or there is an aluminum shell in there ?


It is all carbon shell.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:06 pm 
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Permon, I set you a PM


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:32 am 
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Location: NoVA/DC
On the r3 carbon shell, primer is a must. Both surfaces ought to be cleaned thoroughly first as well.
As ive stated before, 603 is my go-to. It's 30-50% stronger than 609, and it's oil tolerant. That means if some fool installing it still puts a greasy fingerprint on it, it's not as big an issue. It's also more able to cure without primer.
638- if i remember correctly, that fills larger gaps, and is thicker. I tighter fit may push too much out for it to be effective. I'd have to look it up, but the actual bond strength may not be greater than 609.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:49 am 
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Yup, 638 is a good bit stronger than 609. Loctite does not specify a minumum gap for it, i'd just make sure that the parts are fully coated then.
(I would "edit", but im doing this on my phone. Sorry.)


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 6:08 am 
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Aren't all these 609 or 638 fixes sort of permanent ? What if you want to remove these cups later for instance to switch to a BB30 crank. Are you then running the risk of damaging the BB shell itself ?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 7:23 am 
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thisisatest wrote:
On the r3 carbon shell, primer is a must. Both surfaces ought to be cleaned thoroughly first as well.
As ive stated before, 603 is my go-to. It's 30-50% stronger than 609, and it's oil tolerant. That means if some fool installing it still puts a greasy fingerprint on it, it's not as big an issue. It's also more able to cure without primer.
638- if i remember correctly, that fills larger gaps, and is thicker. I tighter fit may push too much out for it to be effective. I'd have to look it up, but the actual bond strength may not be greater than 609.


Thank You for reply.
Yes, the 638 is a thick one. The fit was tight and if you look at the cups, they have a rubber sealings which by my opinion pushed all of the loctite out of the contact area :(

So, I am going to use 603/638/ 641 (609 not available at LBS :( + primer and I will remove the rubber sealings....more loctite should stay in the place and I hope it will work. If not, I will have to figure out some machining works to produce an additinal piece to enlarge the contact area of the right cup ..... or a connecting piece betwen left and right cup to make the set more stable.

Uff, I bought a new frame to make myself happy....so far, only troubles! I did not enjoy any second on the new frame.
Why do producers always try to come with something new and useless?
Why arent the cups to be threaded?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:10 pm 
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I'd just put the loctite on the cup as well as the frame.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:58 pm 
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thisisatest wrote:
I'd just put the loctite on the cup as well as the frame.


Yeah, for sure. I hope it will work. One of the WW member wrote me, that he tried everything with loctite and it does not work at all :(

So, if it does not work I am planning to machine aluminium threaded tube to connect the cups. Both inner sections of the cups will be machined so they can be connected with the threaded tube....this could make ONE SOLID BLOCK THREADED TOGETHER. Easy as it is.
WHY THE F.CK cannot Cervelo/Campagnolo do it like this??!!
The only solution I can see at this moment. If I do this, I will report here.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 5:21 pm 
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THM does it like that. But because it is pressed in while threading it on one side this does not necessarily sound like a good idea with a full carbon BB.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 5:59 pm 
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LionelB wrote:
THM does it like that. But because it is pressed in while threading it on one side this does not necessarily sound like a good idea with a full carbon BB.


Yes, something like this :thumbup:
Why do You think it is not a good idea to use it in a full carbon BB?

If the Loctite does not work, advice solution, please.
Because I am not about to say: "OK, I spent 3000$ for useless frameset, I am going to stare at it and will buy a another one" :unbelievable:

Thanx. :beerchug:


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 6:30 pm 
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There maybe some risk of damaging the carbon. This shell is designed to press a plastic BB in it (the SRAM one is some sort of plastic). So twisting and pressing an aluminum part may or may not be OK.

Solutions for Campy, not sure really.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 7:35 pm 
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Ok, so this is all about the details. If the shop didn't use the primer then they did not do a proper installation. You have to use the primer.

Personal I think the BBright was designed for PF30 and everything else is a work around. All of the pro's use a bbright cranks and as far as I have read there has been no issue. When you move the bearing out of the frame the load point changes and right side cup has to go farther in the frame. I think math would be able to tell us how much but that is way above me head.

I feel that this is a campy issue and that they are trying to keep the weigh down or you start to loose the benefit over the square taper. All of the cups/bb that screw together start to weigh almost as much as the square taper.

My right side cup did move after the 1st few rides but it looks like it has stopped so I am taking a wait and see approach. Not the best solution, but I love campy and really don't want to use a rotor crank.

Cervelo has had great customer service and I am more than willing to give them the time to see what happens.

Permon please reach out to Cervelo, I am sure that they will work with you and the shop to find a working solution.

C


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 7:46 pm 
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uraqt wrote:
Ok, so this is all about the details. If the shop didn't use the primer then they did not do a proper installation. You have to use the primer.

Personal I think the BBright was designed for PF30 and everything else is a work around. All of the pro's use a bbright cranks and as far as I have read there has been no issue. When you move the bearing out of the frame the load point changes and right side cup has to go farther in the frame. I think math would be able to tell us how much but that is way above me head.

I feel that this is a campy issue and that they are trying to keep the weigh down or you start to loose the benefit over the square taper. All of the cups/bb that screw together start to weigh almost as much as the square taper.

My right side cup did move after the 1st few rides but it looks like it has stopped so I am taking a wait and see approach. Not the best solution, but I love campy and really don't want to use a rotor crank.

Cervelo has had great customer service and I am more than willing to give them the time to see what happens.

Permon please reach out to Cervelo, I am sure that they will work with you and the shop to find a working solution.

C


Yes, it is definatelly a CAMPY fail.
The reason why the driveside cup is coming out of the frame is the design of Ultra Torque system, which uses the wave washer, it gives some side play in the system. As You wrote, the drive side cup has beraing out of the frame, so the torques are pretty high, the result is the problem we have. So, theoretically, if You put enought spacers in the cups, they will not move.... :idea:
This could actually solve the problem:
http://roguemechanic.typepad.com/roguem ... orque.html

What do You think guys?

One question to You uragt: is it save to run the system with one cup not perfectlly sitting in the frame???!!! Does Cervelo tell You that this is OK? :unbelievable: Isnt it making some damage to the carbon bottom bracket? My right cup is not parallel to the BB, so it stresses some part much higher than the other!!! That is the reason why I do not ride the bike.

I have already contacted Cervelo (yesterday), so far no response. Actually, I do not need to talk about it with them, I need to find solution, so I can ride my bike. :smartass: :wink:


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:51 pm 
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Posts: 659
Location: NYC
Permon wrote:
Yes, it is definatelly a CAMPY fail.
The reason why the driveside cup is coming out of the frame is the design of Ultra Torque system, which uses the wave washer, it gives some side play in the system. ...
This could actually solve the problem:
http://roguemechanic.typepad.com/roguem ... orque.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Permon, the wave washer and the RogueMechanic "fix" has nothing to do with it...this is simply a BBRIght Campy Press Fit issue. It sounds like your LBS is engaging in due diligence to try and solve the issues but I noticed two errors they made.

First, take off rubber o-rings and lip-seals from the cups before installing as they may get snagged in the compound (in between frame and cup) when inserting cups and yield an uneven surface (interestingly, my cups only came with the o-rings, but no seals...your pics appear to display a lip seal against the frame?). Second, Loctite 638 is too thick for this application and as others have indicated, it may be simply oozing out from between the gap when you press in your cups, leaving you with limited compound to actually bond. Use 609 for best results. Begin by applying liberal amounts of primer and be sure to let dry for at least 30-60 minutes, then apply liberal amounts of 609 both on cups and frame. Use a bearing press to fit the cups and leave the press fitted for at least 24 hours (this is very important). Do not let your shop install using the actual cranks as a press....this may result in Loctite oozing into your bearings, leaving you with another problem. There are no shortcuts...the bearing press is required.

Given that your LBS has already tried this a couple of times and failed I suspect there will be lots of compound residue in your BB shell and on your cups...that will need to be cleaned thoroughly (use acetone) before trying to reinstall.

I have installed BBiright cups on many Cervelos and found that my initial use of 641 (what Cervelo was initially recommending when BBRIght was first introduced) was simply not sufficient and the cups found their way loose after a few ride, however, others have had success with 641. I have not had any failures after using 609.

Good luck,
EM3

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Last edited by em3 on Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:17 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:51 pm 


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