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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:59 pm 
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Tubbie Guru

Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 2:20 am
Posts: 5793
Location: Belgium
Hi,

Valbrona wrote:
This geezer is installing Ultra-Torue into traditional-pattern BB shells without the wavy washer: http://roguemechanic.typepad.com/roguem ... pdate.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is said that shim kits for BB30 and PF30 are in the pipeline.


That's because he just does not seem to understand what that washer is for anyway...... :roll:

Ciao, ;)

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Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:59 pm 


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:21 pm 
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Posts: 574
fdegrove wrote:
Hi,

Valbrona wrote:
This geezer is installing Ultra-Torue into traditional-pattern BB shells without the wavy washer: http://roguemechanic.typepad.com/roguem ... pdate.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is said that shim kits for BB30 and PF30 are in the pipeline.


That's because he just does not seem to understand what that washer is for anyway...... :roll:

Ciao, ;)


Tell us.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:43 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 2:20 am
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Location: Belgium
Hi,

The washer is there to preload the cartridge bearings of the crank and therefore hase no influence whatsoever on the problem you're experiencing.
IOW without it you won't solve the problem but will very likely cause havoc on the bearings instead.

See also Em3's reply on page 3 of this very topic.

Ciao, ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:54 am 
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Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 4:02 am
Posts: 1969
Location: NoVA/DC
To clarify:
Specialized adapters may work with pf30 if their outer diameter (the part that sits OUTBOARD of the bearings is not greater than 42mm. For BOTH pf30 and bb30, the bearings are the same, 42*30mm, pf30 adds a plastic sleeve over their bearings to bring the overall OD to 46mm. If the specialized adapter is larger than 42mm, it may possibly rub the pf30 plastic cup.
Carbon osbb fits into specialized frames, they are 61mm wide and have a hole 46mm in diameter. Here's the important part: when you add their osbb cups to their frame (unlike the similar, but not the same pf30), the TOTAL width is 68mm and the osbb cup ID is 42mm.
Therefore,
Carbon osbb frame + carbon osbb cups = bb30 dimensions.
The specialized adapters for campy are intended to work with bb30 dimensions. Pf30 is largely the same except for a small plastic lip protruding past the frame.

If now you're thinking, "Well, then why don't I just use campy's 68*42 OS-fit cups in the carbon osbb cups?" The reason you don't want to do that is because the potential for prying out is high when installing those outboard campy cups into the specialized plastic ones. That's the whole reason specialized came up with another solution.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:41 pm 
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Posts: 574
fdegrove wrote:
Hi,

The washer is there to preload the cartridge bearings of the crank and therefore hase no influence whatsoever on the problem you're experiencing.

Ciao, ;)


Every time I read this explanation I wonder why all the Shimano/Rotor/Sram etc etc bearings are not shot after few rides :shock:
They do not use any stupid wave washer. Their system just fit the bottom bracket, no side play, no over-loading of bearings. Adding shims to Ultra torque is the same - removing side play.....so, why is everybody talking about shot bearings? :noidea:
Please explain, because I really do not understand it. :roll:


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:16 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 2:20 am
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Location: Belgium
Hi,

Search results:

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/search.php?keywords=WAVY+WASHER&terms=all&author=DAVES&fid%5B%5D=3&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

More pertinent:

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=50053&hilit=WAVY+WASHER

Which makes me wonder if the BB shell width of your frame is within spec....?

Ciao, ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:40 pm 
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The wavy washer is there to accommodate imperfect manufacturing dimensions in B&B widths, within reason. Nothing more. There is no "preload" on these bearings, they just have to fit properly. They do not work like a cup and cone system. The "Rogue Mechanics" system of getting just the perfect fit is fine, but I don't believe it is necessary if your BB is within spec (+/- .8mm of 68.0 if you're talking about an English width BB shell). Hope you eventually get this issue resolved.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:08 pm 
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Calnago wrote:
There is no "preload" on these bearings, they just have to fit properly. They do not work like a cup and cone system. The "Rogue Mechanics" system of getting just the perfect fit is fine


Exactly my opinion. :welcome:

I am stripping the frame and sending it back to Cervelo. I think it is out of spec.
I hope, they will agree with me :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:49 pm 
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Hi,

Quote:
There is no "preload" on these bearings, they just have to fit properly.


Actually, there is preload on the bearings outer ring which is necessary to keep the cartridge aligned inside the cup on the non-drive side. The pressure on the wavy washer is also present on the bearing' outer ring on the driveside.
IOW remove the wavy washer and any BB shell that's a little out of spec will have the bearings move sideways inside the cups.

Anyhow, 'nuff said.... ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:07 am 
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fdegrove wrote:


I was reading the topics about UT and I found interesting thing.

In one of the topic is written:
The only other situation that might require shimming is if a crank was found to be defective, with too much width between the bearings. A serious mechanic would measure this distance and know if there was a problem to fix or not before guessing at a fix. I measured a right and left side cup and calculated a nominal width of 76.4mm between the faces of the BB cups, with a 68mm BB shell width. I'd be worried if the inside to inside bearing width was much more than 78mm.

Well, I measured my cranks shaft and it is more than 79mm!!!
The left side of the shaft is approx 41mm and the right one is only approx 39mm.
It looks like the cranks are substandard. :lol:

Well, what a lucky guy I am!
Substandard frame, substandard cranks.....am I also substandard that I deserve this? 8)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:55 am 
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Location: Belgium
Hi,

Quote:
Substandard frame, substandard cranks.....am I also substandard that I deserve this?


That's the problem with tolerances....If they all err on the same side of the scale etc....

You substandard? I don't think so. IMO you're setting new standards for pitbullism.... :mrgreen:

Ciao, ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:03 am 
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fdegrove wrote:
Hi,

Quote:
There is no "preload" on these bearings, they just have to fit properly.


Actually, there is preload on the bearings outer ring which is necessary to keep the cartridge aligned inside the cup on the non-drive side. The pressure on the wavy washer is also present on the bearing' outer ring on the driveside.
IOW remove the wavy washer and any BB shell that's a little out of spec will have the bearings move sideways inside the cups.

Anyhow, 'nuff said.... ;)

Perhaps it's an issue of semantics. I consider "preload" on bearings something that if increased would eventually cause the bearings to bind, like a cup and cone system. All the force of the wavy washer is applied to the outer edge of the race and has no effect on how the inner bearings spin. This does not mean that you can omit the wavy washer and do nothing else. But if you do throw away the wavy washer, you can still obtain perfect operation by taking up the space with shims, which is exactly what that "rogue mechanic" guy is trying to explain. The wavy washer simply makes it unnecessary to go through the painstaking step by step shimming process until you get it just right.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:43 pm 
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Location: Belgium
Hi,

Quote:
I consider "preload" on bearings something that if increased would eventually cause the bearings to bind, like a cup and cone system.


Just like a cup and cone bearing an industrial bearing will bind when pressure is applied unequally to the bearing rings.
It will run on one wall of the groove untill it runs out of space and binds.
The way the UT crank system is designed you just can't allow the bearings to be "floating" around since they would be working themselves out of the cups continuously.
The term "pre-load" may be a little deceiving but essentielly all it does is keeping the bearing in axis.

Ciao, ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:19 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:14 pm
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Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Just curious if a solution has been found in regards to the Campy/PF30 play/creaking people are having? I am experiencing the same problem as well where my frame has a carbon shell and the PF30 BB is not solid. There was movement in the crank laterally and the non-drive side cup came out with the crank when removed!!


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Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:19 pm 


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:05 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2004 8:57 pm
Posts: 765
Location: Ireland
There is no preload on the bearing, there is preload on the bearing shell, this is to "locate" the shell and stop the bearing moving in the cup. It also stops the cranks moving side to side. Not a great solution.


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