Millar's comeback

[yourdaguy]

That won't work either. Once an athlete is banned for life or retires the governing body has no controll over his free speech. There is no way to enforce 5. Besides, you can ban him from the sport, but he still has to eat.

[big fellow]

i would like to know what zakeen's thoughts on this are, consdering he might be racing against millar at some point in time...

[mises]

Does anyone here think that taking drugs is good? NO
Does anyone here like the damage done in cycling from drugs? NO
What are we talking about then?

I think that in some circumstances like grand tours taking certain drugs would be healthier for the athletes than a total ban, rather like what Peter Winnen has suggested in the past.

The damage to cycling is not really from the drugs themselves but from the prohibition of them: the bad publicity from catching people, and the deaths that result from the lack of proper medical supervision because most of the best doctors don't want to be involved in illegal activities.

The whole expansion of the US promoted war on drugs into sports in general makes me very uncomfortable. The effects on freedom and society in general have been bad enough and the effects on sports will be no better. If people really cared about drugs in sports they would have stopped watching years ago. I think most would simply rather not hear about it, which is exactly opposite of what cycling has done.

[smallfish101]

The worrying thing for me is that some riders may look at the two year ban and the fact that he didnt actually get caught and decide to run the risk themselves. The fact that he is of a pretty high profile just makes it worse. Cheats breed cheats and the less publicity he can get the better.

In my opinion his conduct cannot be deemed as better than any other drug cheat. He knew what he was doing the whole time and he made his choice, he is a cheat, full stop. Tommorow you could have the top five in a race all say that they've cheated and theyre sorry; how would you feel if you were the sixth bloke?
.

Ask Michael Rogers

[smallfish101]

More seriously, while we all hate cheats, the principle of "do the crime do the time " stands.
Those asking for lifetime bans etc. are a bit out of touch. This is these guys livelihood. There income, the means by which they live. It is only a sport ( well, sometimes it is war ) but to totally destroy their lives for something as innocuous as cheating at sport, when real crims - assaults, burglaries even rapists get out after 2 years and resume their lives - is not realistic.
So.... Millar is welcome back. If he is any good without the dope, we'll soon find out.

[ultimobici]

More seriously, while we all hate cheats, the principle of "do the crime do the time " stands.
Those asking for lifetime bans etc. are a bit out of touch. This is these guys livelihood. There income, the means by which they live. It is only a sport ( well, sometimes it is war ) but to totally destroy their lives for something as innocuous as cheating at sport, when real crims - assaults, burglaries even rapists get out after 2 years and resume their lives - is not realistic.
So.... Millar is welcome back. If he is any good without the dope, we'll soon find out.

Although, I would make the comparison to a stockbroker who is caught "Insider Trading". I think that they are barred from trading for life.

Maybe a increasing curve of bans would work. 2 years for first offence and 5 years for a second offence? That way most riders who dope twice will efectively be banned from pro level competition for life, as they will have to start from scratch and be up against riders 10 years their junior.

As far as comparing doping to real crime and how people are treated after their sentences, there is a big difference. A burglar who is released from prison has had their liberty taken away, and has a criminal record. A sportsman who has been banned, has been free to find an alternative means of making a living. Additionally, banning him from sport for life is not preventing him from making a living, it will simply mean that he is less likely to be able to earn the amount he was used to.

Life's hard - if you were an Insider Dealer raking in $1m before getting caught, and all you can do is work at McDonalds for $8/hr that's your fault and I won't feel any sympathy for you.

[smallfish101]

More seriously, while we all hate cheats, the principle of "do the crime do the time " stands.
Those asking for lifetime bans etc. are a bit out of touch. This is these guys livelihood. There income, the means by which they live. It is only a sport ( well, sometimes it is war ) but to totally destroy their lives for something as innocuous as cheating at sport, when real crims - assaults, burglaries even rapists get out after 2 years and resume their lives - is not realistic.
So.... Millar is welcome back. If he is any good without the dope, we'll soon find out.

Although, I would make the comparison to a stockbroker who is caught "Insider Trading". I think that they are barred from trading for life.

Maybe a increasing curve of bans would work. 2 years for first offence and 5 years for a second offence? That way most riders who dope twice will efectively be banned from pro level competition for life, as they will have to start from scratch and be up against riders 10 years their junior.

agree 110%. Gotta give them a chance, but if they blow it - do the time -more time.

As far as comparing doping to real crime and how people are treated after their sentences, there is a big difference. A burglar who is released from prison has had their liberty taken away, and has a criminal record.

He will still forever be the guy who doped

A sportsman who has been banned, has been free to find an alternative means of making a living.
Additionally, banning him from sport for life is not preventing him from making a living, it will simply mean that he is less likely to be able to earn the amount he was used to.

Yes, theoretically. However, most of these guys are full-on pro's, and have sacrificed almost every other opportunity in order to climb through the ranks. They have nothing else. Only a few are lucky enough to have a complete education etc.

Life's hard - if you were an Insider Dealer raking in $1m before getting caught, and all you can do is work at McDonalds for $8/hr that's your fault and I won't feel any sympathy for you.

[ultimobici]

Yes, theoretically. However, most of these guys are full-on pro's, and have sacrificed almost every other opportunity in order to climb through the ranks. They have nothing else. Only a few are lucky enough to have a complete education etc.

As I said - Life's hard! A guy who decides to break the law to get ahead runs the risk of jail, and when released not earning as much as before because potential employers don't want someone of questionable morals in their employ. So he has to take what he is offered. If it's a low paid menial job, that's the price of the choice to break the rules! If the doper hadn't crossed the line, he would still be riding for a living.

[carlos]

cycling is so infested with drugs and cheaters that one more or one less doper will not make any difference.

[racingtiger]

Ok, let's be realistic. Yes Millar doped. He says on two occasions but who knows. But think about pro cycling. Do any of us honestly think that if a DS walked in on some of his riders injecting themselves he would sack them? No, he may "scold" them or tell them "Not to get caught," But that’s it! So I don’t think that they are really going to care despite what they may say to please their sponsors. Also another point, look at Millar. He's an advertisers dream. Edgy and he leaves and impression. Think back to when Millar rode. We have images of him wearing the Oakley Over the Top sunglasses in TTs and the Giro Revolution 5 Helmet (lances helmet) stuck in our heads. Heck, we even remember him being one of the first pros with an Ipod glued to his arm. That's product placement! Combine this with the fact he could win some big races and there you go. He’s very marketable. And as for the "Ask Michael Rogers" comment, how do we know he didn’t dope either.

[drjones96]

Do any of us honestly think that if a DS walked in on some of his riders injecting themselves he would sack them? No, he may "scold" them or tell them "Not to get caught," But that’s it! So I don’t think that they are really going to care despite what they may say to please their sponsors.

Phonak has changed some things in their organization. They do internal drug tests in addition to the UCI tests. I think they would sack somebody if they knew for sure they were cheating. Of course the managment shake up is due to the whole Tyler incident and some of his other team mates getting busted. It was pretty clear they were dirty. If things didn't change I'm sure the whole team would have been barred from the ProTour.

[ShinyBaldy]

I've always wondered about this... why not create a transition/incremental system?

1) 12 months implimentation period

2) Anyone who confesses with 12 months gets clemency, can continue to ride as long as they a) demonstrate how they doped, b) who provided them, c) name others involved. This information helps preventing doping in the future. And they subject themselves to more testing and is required to make an apology.

3) After 12 months - anyone who is determined to be positive gets lifetime ban from getting a license in any professional or amateur cycling.

(idea prob needs more refinement - but what do you think about the general idea?)

[racingtiger]

It was pretty clear they were dirty. If things didn't change I'm sure the whole team would have been barred from the ProTour.

Exactly! It wasnt until Phonak was threatened with the fact that they would be kicked out of the Protour that they, the sponsors, acted. Remember Phonak the company sacked all the directors on Phonak the team. So it's sponsors that'll care not the directors.

[ultimobici]

It wasnt until Phonak was threatened with the fact that they would be kicked out of the Protour that they, the sponsors, acted.

Too true, maybe this is the way forward?

So it's sponsors that'll care not the directors.

Sponsors have much more at stake. Can you imagine the damage a doped rider could do to a sponsor like IKEA or Sony?

[racingtiger]

Well we'll probably get to see that since Sony is taking over for Fassa Bartolo. I think one other their guys will get busted. No offense to Gian Carlo Ferreti, but I trust that DS about as far as my 129lbs can throw him. He just seems, well, shady.