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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:34 pm 
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This may seem a bit far-out to consider these, considering the prices of these hubs for wheels($1100 for a set), but I would really like to hear from anyone who has any experience with these hubs, both good and bad?

- Do they last long? (for tarmac road usage, not counting bike accidents and non-normal abuse)

- Do they "roll better" than a normal ceramic hub, ie is there a validated I-got-further-than-usual-by-constant-Wattage on an identical course, both ways, in similar wind and weather and energy of the rider? (optimally :))

- Are they the cream of the cream of ceramic hubs for homemade aero wheels or are there similar and better and/or cheaper competitive hubs out there? (I was told these are what a SRM is for Watt gauges, ie the topend Rolls Royce)

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Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:34 pm 
  • 0.20 € (including 19% VAT)
  • 1063 components by DT Swiss


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:56 pm 
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Location: Belgium
Hi,

Mucho overpriced bling-bling on a hub that does not deserve all that much attention, fine as it is though.

Go ceramic on Campa hubs if you think it's worthwhile (I do) even though I think they (Campa that is) are still not applying them the way they should...

Same could be said about DT. Seems that most engineers are hybernating these days........ :lol:

Quite often I get the idea that non of the pundits have any clue about how a bike functions anyhow. :mrgreen:

Ciao, ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:14 am 
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I think that some have a misunderstanding that hubs are some kind of commodity bike component. I can understand that, they don't really spin that fast and they just look like another machined component.

But they are one of the most difficult to make components on a bike, reliably make that is. I would say the fork is the other most difficult.

Zipp has some interesting reading on their site, they have tried for years to make reliable hubs. They have probably put more effort into hubs than wheels. They never would have guessed how difficult it was going to be to design and manufacture a reliable hub set. The rear hub being the problem of course.

This being weight weenies, we are interested in light hubs. It might not be terribly difficult to make a heavy hub. Then again it would still be more difficult than you might first guess. It is very difficult to build a light and durable hub. Sure, you can see that plenty of people sell them. But many of them have problems. Other companies come out with a new and improved model each year and think they finally have the one. Look at Zipp, it should have been a simple problem 20 years ago to design their own hub and end of story. But by their own admission they have tried over and over and largely failed for years. I give them a lot of credit for writing about the challenges. And they have really invested in the design and production and their current products are finally competitive.

Most other companies that are selling the latest in light hub design have not admitted their errors and I will leave out names but they include some very expensive and not the best performing products.

Where does that leave DT Swiss 190, they make a competitively light and very durable and easy to maintain hub. They happen to be my favorite hub. I wish they were a little lighter and cost a little less.

They do not have a new hub at the bike shows each year, one that never leaves the showroom and that is promised to be in production soon.

What they do have is a light workhorse hub that you can ride every day.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:23 am 
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Ok thanks for the insight sedluk,

I think I'll do another thread with a more generic hub "survey" of this subject.

I really wish there was some friction number displaying how well something "rolled" so it wouldn't have to be subjective compares.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:19 am 
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Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 8:49 am
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Location: Denmark
I have a fair experience with both the DT240 and 190 hubsets. IMHO, the 190's are WAY overpriced. If you disregard from the marginally better flange spacing (which is still not that good for building a stiff wheel) and lighter weight, I think the DT240 is much better hub, especially considering the price. The freehub on the 190 is made with even smaller bearings, which sits inside a plastic sleeve. We have had a lot of prematurely worn 190 freehubs for that reason. The balls are tiny and the plastic sleeve compresses under load, which seems to allow the bearings to move a bit, adding to the wear.
The ceramic bearings are also not very high quality. I have tried to take them out and compare with Ceramic Speed bearings. There's lightyears in difference. The 190 bearings are china ceramics.
If you are set on DT hubs, my best advice would be to take a set of 240's and upgrade them with Ceramic Speed bearings. That way you have all the advantages and is probably cheaper as well.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:14 pm 
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I'm not set on them Mario and thx for a very good answer.

Damn €442/$612 for an upgrade kit! :shock:
http://shop.ceramicspeed.com/products/1 ... e-kit.aspx

Edit:
It became $147 more expensive than 2*190 hubs, with 2*240 + CS upgrade. But if thats then the king of all hubs then..

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:35 pm 
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fdegrove wrote:
Mucho overpriced bling-bling on a hub that does not deserve all that much attention, fine as it is though.

Go ceramic on Campa hubs if you think it's worthwhile (I do) even though I think they (Campa that is) are still not applying them the way they should...

Same could be said about DT. Seems that most engineers are hybernating these days........ :lol:

Quite often I get the idea that non of the pundits have any clue about how a bike functions anyhow. :mrgreen:


Sorry, I missed your post at first,

I read this a bit cryptically, but in gist I think you mean that:

- DT Swiss are overpriced(fair enough I totally agree) and an over-hyped brand for hubs, but its a fine hub-quality otherwise?

- By Campy's hubs, you mean hubs like Campagnolo Record Front/Rear Hub right?..
I assume that means I have to run Campy cassette then and thus Campy grouppo as a whole?
This would limit me, as I don't like Campys old style Super Record, its Sram Red(barring Front Deraileur in Force) or Di2(I like the 4 shifter button option) for me. I can't see a reason barring that 11th gear to pick Campy SR grouppo.

- What exactly do you mean by "Campy not applying them as they should" ?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:48 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:02 pm
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Location: around amsterdam
it just so happens i am about building a wheelset with dt190 hubs
just finished the rear and doing the front one soon
mario jr was very clear about the rear hub
lets take a short look about the fronthub without doing a long term test

Image


pro:

- proberly reasonbel stiff hub, front hubs proberly dont bend much at all but it makes the bearings sit tight
- looks good, but nothing special at all
- i like the teeth that are on the end of the end cap, lot sof hubs have this but a lot of them dont
you dont really need this but it nice to have it when you dont run a heavy duty quick release (shimano/campagnolo) but a
light weight model without having it to over tighten it much to prevent creaking on aluminium dropouts
- pretty beefy flangs so you can run a radial spoke design without worry, even with a 28 spoke like this one
dont know if a higher spoke count can do so


con:

- way ovepriced compared to a 240
- not much lighter then a 240, from memory no more then than 20 grams
- however the bearings run smooth, the seals still make the hub still not run smooth like you want it to be
its not smoother then a 240, mayby even slightly less
- you still dont get a quick release, not even a steel one
- not that light at all, 107 grams for a front hub is a tad much

sidenote: the rear hub cassette body is still made of soft aluminium wich could be stronger like american classic has with their
reinforced splines


in general:

i have quite a few 240 hubs, but this will be my only pair of 190, unless they come free for whatever reason
get 240 if you are in DT hubs, if not then take your pick


( if you like me to test more hubs this way, feel free to donate high end hub sets :twisted: :wink: :!: )

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Last edited by tochnics on Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:50 pm 
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double post

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:02 pm 
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The 190's are being replaced with the 180 model. I wonder what the difference is besides the carbon hubshell on the and most likely a price increase!


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:13 pm 
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Location: Central USA
Bvb45 wrote:

- By Campy's hubs, you mean hubs like Campagnolo Record Front/Rear Hub right?..
I assume that means I have to run Campy cassette then and thus Campy grouppo as a whole?
This would limit me, as I don't like Campys old style Super Record, its Sram Red(barring Front Deraileur in Force) or Di2(I like the 4 shifter button option) for me. I can't see a reason barring that 11th gear to pick Campy SR grouppo.



Campy offers an optional shimano/sram freehub for most if not all of their wheels. http://www.campagnolo.com/jsp/en/wheelscat/worlds_2.jsp


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:30 am 
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Location: Irvine, CA
When hubs fail, where is the failure? Bearing? Bearing seat?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:01 pm 
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Location: lat 38.9677 lon 77.3366
Hubs can fail from bearing/race wear, pawls, cracks in flanges mostly
I have used 190 and 240 hubs and agree that 240 are better rolling and more durable. I would buy 240's again, not 190's.
IMO Campy Record hubs have much better bearings, IMO the best in the industry. Even my Bora Ultra's (non ceramic) run smoother. I have not noticed any improvement on Bora Two's (ceramic hybrid) at least not in my range of perception. Downside is spoke count on Record hubs.
+1 on seeing some figures on hubs and bearings. We fret over weight and aerodynamics but good bearings save watts* in all conditions
IMO Zipp is still one generation of getting hubs right.


*ok not the technically correct term but you get my drift

:beerchug:

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:45 am 
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Location: USA
I've been riding DT 190's for 4 years now and they are starting to show signs of wear. There is a slight bit of roughness when rotating the axles by hand. There is also a stiffness which is probably associated with bearing seals.

I had my LBS remove all the inward seals in an effort to reduce the stiffness, which resulted in no difference in rotating by hand.

It's difficult to really say how smoothly these hubs have performed as there is no way for me to quantify this. When I first got them they were very smooth, but again the stiffness was always there and made me wonder if this purchase was worth it.

I've mentioned this before; I wish there was a way to measure and publish a wheels true frictional rating, where the wheel is under load with the rocking component added to approximate a rider standing such as climbing or simple acceleration. The rocking component will distort the hub and cause an eccentricity with the bearing bores which will lead to friction. Rarely have I seen anyone bring this issue up. Add this to the smaller bearings that are used in the DT190 hub and I would not be surprised of a fair amount of energy loss was found in under normal riding conditions.

All this emphasis on lightness for speed and we are most likely incurring frictional losses as a result hub distortion and a bearing choice that is too small for the application.

Looking back I would have gone with 240's with the CeramicSpeed upgrade.


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Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:45 am 
  • 0.20 € (including 19% VAT)
  • 1063 components by DT Swiss


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 4:16 am 
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Location: USA
Thought I'd update on my DT Swiss 190 hubs. They are quite difficult to rotate by hand, and even slightly grainy feeling. I think they are about shot. Since I bought them at a fairly reasonable cost when they first came out many years ago, I'm looking to replace these bearings with something cheap, but durable. Just to hold me over for a few months until I can afford my new wheels.

Any thoughts on replacement bearings would be appreciated. Boca, Enduro? I'd like to stay with ceramic.


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