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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:00 pm 
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Because you're supporting that weight with muscles, lifting it every time you get out of the saddle (or for that matter change your position), doing work you don't need to do. The reason we have bottle cages is because supporting weight on the frame is superior to on the body. Pockets are for easy access, not for emergency supplies.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:06 pm 
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Have you seen the new CrankBrothers Caption Bag? It has a 0.5 liter volume...and comes with a 5yr warranty.

www.crankbrothers.com

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Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:06 pm 


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:48 pm 
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I have Vincero bottle mounts on both my bikes (which are very WW already)

I use one of their 20-oz bottles to carry 1 tube, 1 tiny mini tool, 1 tire lever, 1 CO2, and a few other things (band-aid, 2 advil, etc). pretty minimalist, it's enough for most of my rides, it pretty much fills the bottle (i could shove some knog lights or lenses in there too, i guess). On rides where i want to use a second bottle, i just put that 20-oz in my middle jersey pocket and add a 2nd bottle.

It's very stealth.

the original plan was to use my storage bottle as a water bottle when i needed it out on the road (e.g. just take the supplies out, put them in the jersey and fill it with water). turns out that the tube seems to contaminate the bottle - i guess the rubber just gives off fumes that have made the bottle apparently unusable for drinking.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:47 pm 
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djconnel wrote:
Because you're supporting that weight with muscles, lifting it every time you get out of the saddle (or for that matter change your position), doing work you don't need to do. The reason we have bottle cages is because supporting weight on the frame is superior to on the body. Pockets are for easy access, not for emergency supplies.


I carry 1 tube, a patch kit, 2 CO2's (and the inflator), and a multi-tool, All of this weighs 415g. If you can't add less than a pound on your back, there is something seriously wrong. (by the way, my comment about the Camelback was a joke, I hate Camelback's)


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 10:03 pm 
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Again, a 20oz/600ml bottle is almost twice the weight of a small saddlebag, and that's without counting the cage holder. I don't spend hundreds of $$ somewhere else to save 50g just to throw it away on something like this. I mean, this is WW afterall?

Secondly, on the CB bag... going for a 0,5L bag when I already have a 0,25L is sort of going for the opposite of what I'm looking for here. In a perfect world something like 0,15L would be perfect...

Right now I fit two 16gr CO2 canisters, CO2 pump, two home keys, chain tool, multi tool, some money, full set of Park Tool puncture repair patches in the original box, one tire lever, and I still have plenty of room to spare, could probably squeeze in half a power bar without even stretching the fabric...

Guess I could probably even do without the half eaten powerbar and one of the two CO2 canisters :)

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 10:11 pm 
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Colin wrote:
I carry 1 tube, a patch kit, 2 CO2's (and the inflator), and a multi-tool, All of this weighs 415g. If you can't add less than a pound on your back, there is something seriously wrong. (by the way, my comment about the Camelback was a joke, I hate Camelback's)


And if you can't add an extra pound on your frame, something's seriously wrong. We're already talking obsessive attention to detail. Even more weight on the frame will be easier/faster.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 10:22 pm 
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djconnel wrote:
Carrying stuff in a pocket to avoid a saddle bag is dumb.


Depends on why you avoid saddle bags in the first place. I stopped using them because my ass and thighs were too fat and would ruin my bibs from rubbing against the saddle bags. I tried a bunch of them in different sizes and designs and still had the same issue. I now simply put an extra tubular folded, 2 tire levers, and a little pump inside of an old sunglass carrying bag (the soft type you use to also clean them with) and stick it in one pocket. At first, it was very uncomfortable, but quickly learned it was simply new and something different to get used to. Now, I don't even know it is there. Middle pocket is a ziplock with iphone, ID, and a couple of bucks. Other side pocket is for a couple of bars.

I never understood why people would use one single water bottle and use the other as a carrying container when I ride with 2 large bottles and wished I had more. That was until I started to ride in Italy and noticed it was the trend here. The thing is that here there is public water fountains all over the place, so stopping to refill when needed is very easy and convenient as it takes 20-30 sec. Where I ride back home, most times you must carry what you'll need unless you know exactly where you can get water in a pinch. Most convenient stores are a pain to go into if you care about your bike getting stolen. If I could get rid of one water bottle and use the other for a storage container, I would in a heartbeat. Having said that, my current method works more than just fine!!


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 10:50 pm 
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djconnel wrote:
Because you're supporting that weight with muscles, lifting it every time you get out of the saddle (or for that matter change your position), doing work you don't need to do. The reason we have bottle cages is because supporting weight on the frame is superior to on the body. Pockets are for easy access, not for emergency supplies.



Having a saddle bag at such a high center of gravity point swinging around (inertia) is going to make work for you too Image


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 10:54 pm 
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I don't see why that would be true.

The bike maintains an angle determined by the static equilibrium between gravity and lateral acceleration: I don't lift the bike; that's more of a pendulum behavior, a time-dependent trade-off between kinetic and potential energy.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:12 pm 
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djconnel wrote:
I don't see why that would be true.

The bike maintains an angle determined by the static equilibrium between gravity and lateral acceleration: I don't lift the bike; that's more of a pendulum behavior, a time-dependent trade-off between kinetic and potential energy.


If you are out of the saddle climbing or sprinting you're going to be oscillating the bike in a pendulum behavior.....

Additionally, we spend all this money to make the bike light, so why just put it back on? The water is bad enough, but that is heavy and bulky to carry on the back for long periods.

I have a small bag of spare/tools, etc, that at least weighs a pound, plus phone, food, keys in my pockets and I don't even know it is there when I am on the bike. Sorry, I don't buy your argument :beerchug:


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:21 pm 
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I assume you're spending the money to reduce bike + body weight, not move weight from the bike to the body.


Weight on the seat post starts from a state of maximum potential energy. If the bike tilts, you get kinetic energy from the potential. When the bike goes upright again, it goes back into potential energy.

Sprinting is a violent, complex activity taking up a very small fraction of total riding time. When I talk about efficiency, I'm talking about the main part of riding, for example climbing. I can't analyze sprinting: it's too messy. But if you think weight is better on your body than the bike, you should get a belt to store your bottles.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:24 pm 
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Just a note on the previous subject of dual bottles, I used to ride two 750ml bottles too, but I soon figured what it would cost to save those ~840g elsewhere - and how much isotonic sports drinks I could buy on gas stations along the way for the same money. Too me that was just a no-brainer. Knocked almost a kilo off the bike... plus, on 3-4h rides I enjoy getting off the bike every now and then to stretch my legs anyway, buying a sports drink is the perfect excuse :-)

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:28 pm 
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Location: Los Angeles and Walnut Creek
djconnel wrote:
I assume you're spending the money to reduce bike + body weight, not move weight from the bike to the body.


Weight on the seat post starts from a state of maximum potential energy. If the bike tilts, you get kinetic energy from the potential. When the bike goes upright again, it goes back into potential energy.

Sprinting is a violent, complex activity taking up a very small fraction of total riding time. When I talk about efficiency, I'm talking about the main part of riding, for example climbing. I can't analyze sprinting: it's too messy. But if you think weight is better on your body than the bike, you should get a belt to store your bottles.



The real point is the weight on your body is so negligible that your argument is moot


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:41 pm 
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Let's not forget that there is a style issue too. For me, it's not so much about weight (I carry 2 750ml bottole, 3 tubes, frame pump, giant multi tool), but about how sloppy a saddle bag feels.

Here I am riding a sleek carbon fiber bike wearing clean, vibrant spandex. Everything on the bike is clean and tuned to perfection. And then there is a stupid bag behind my saddle scratching up my seatpost and swinging around.

Just doesn't do it for me =(


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Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:41 pm 


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:26 am 
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Saddle bags always seem overbuilt for the purpose.

In backpacking, ditty bags are made out of extremely lightweight, but water resistant and strong material.

Like these Outdoor Research Ultralight Ditty Sacks™. The small one has a 3 liter capacity, and weighs only 14 grams.

Image

A saddle bag made out of such material could weigh only a few grams.


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