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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:38 am 
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Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 7:56 am
Posts: 33
has anyone here tried to use track glue on their road tires to improve rolling resistance? I have seen some people talking about it but I have many questions:

-Where did you get the track glue? I can see none for sale. Do people just use shellac sold from a hardware store?

-When changing a tire, I have read you have to completely remove all the glue from the rim before gluing on a new tubular. (can't do on the fly repairs.) Is this true and if so how do you remove shellac from the rim.

-I've read that track glue is meant to work with track tires, because track tires have a dry/cloth base tape which bonds well to shellac. Road tires on the otherhand are coated with something and this not really try. Has anyone tried gluing i.e. veloflex on with shellac, and did it hold on well? Or what kind of tires did you use? I just glued on some dugasts and from what I remember they had a cloth/dry base tape unlike veloflexes which are coated with something yellow.


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Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:38 am 


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 1:19 am 
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This seems to be an interminable subject whenever people get obsessed with rolling resistance. I used shellac and then various other track cement formulations when I was growing up. Believe me, you don't want to.

Shellac: You can't just use liquid shellac solution from the hardware store. You have to make it from dried shellac with absolute ethanol, and it doesn't last long -- the absolute alcohol is very hygroscopic (attracts water) and a little bit of water in the shellac prevents it from working properly. You can't use it on tires with even slight amounts of latex, so Vittoria road tubulars are absolutely out of consideration and calendared tires like the black-tape Competitions and Veloflexes are as well.

The big problem with shellac is that while it makes a very strong bond, it also is susceptible to fracturing. When that happens, it doesn't repair like road mastic does. This isn't much of a problem on the track, but road irregularities will cause shellac to fail and when it does, it basically causes your glue joint to fail irrecoverably and your tire is basically unglued.

Oh, and if you are using wheels of sufficient quality that you are justified worrying about rolling resistance at all, you're probably on carbon rims. I have not found shellac to bond reliably to carbon -- having tried Mavic carbon track wheels, Zipp's, Reynolds, Xentis, and HED, none of them worked reliably.

Other track cements: Soyo makes a very strong rim cement that's popular in Japanese keirin circles. It's not compatible with other glues so you have to do a complete clean-up if you're switching adhesives. Plus, Soyo is extremely toxic so you need to do it outdoors and with gloves on. A rim coated in Soyo and left in a small room can cause some serious respiratory and neurological symptoms. And while it's a stronger bond than Vittoria or Conti, it doesn't make a hard joint.

Another cement that we've been experimenting with is neoprene wet suit cement. The stuff makes a thin and extremely strong bond -- you pretty much have to cut the tire loose and then use vise grips to pull the tire off. It's not particularly hazardous to use, but you do want to do it on clean rims and tires -- no pre-existing cement. It does a particularly nice job in gluing to carbon rims. But I'm not sure it addresses rolling resistance issues.

Frankly, I've seen no really strong evidence that says this is worth pursuing. The German studies haven't addressed the effects of different tire pressures on rolling resistance in combination with gluing method, and all of them assume a theoretical perfect surface in vertical position. As soon as you have cross wind, rough roads, are climbing out of the saddle, etc. etc., all bets are off. You don't see the Pro Tour worrying about it, for a reason.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 3:18 am 
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Posts: 107
http://www.engr.ku.edu/~kuktl/bicycle/Cusa1.pdf

Try this site. the ultimate glue is of course carpet glue. however once comitted to this you will not be able to get the tyre off in a hurry.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 3:39 am 
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Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 4:33 am
Posts: 1060
mofo wrote:
http://www.engr.ku.edu/~kuktl/bicycle/Cusa1.pdf

Try this site. the ultimate glue is of course carpet glue. however once comitted to this you will not be able to get the tyre off in a hurry.


Just curious .... Chip Howat doesn't test any track glues (and I don't believe he ever has, either). Certainly he doesn't address any hard glues, unless you consider old Clement gutta (no longer available) to be a hard glue because it finally gets hard, cracks, and has to be replaced.

To the point of the original poster, I don't actually believe anyone has published results for any hard adhesives regarding rolling resistance. In particular, anyone who does a rolling resistance study should do so at various tire pressures, various weight loadings, and also consider both smooth and rough surfaces. There's been a lot of talk and theory, but none of the studies (including the Tour study and some of the Zipp and other studies) have addressed the issue properly even for modern road mastics, much less for "track adhesives." Lastly, rolling resistance will change with the behavior of the rim itself, so a study on a low-profile alloy tubular rim will give different results from a Zipp 58 mm rim. We've done a variety of studies on different wheel issues including gluing, radial spoking, lateral flex, and so on. We haven't done one on hard glues simply because we don't think it's going to yield productive results -- after all, telling you that there's a lower-rolling-resistance glue doesn't help if it isn't available any longer, or tire or rim makers disavow its use, or it has irrecoverable failures on the road.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:34 am 
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Posts: 33
Thanks. I will keep on using Mastik one.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:52 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:36 pm
Posts: 1
any back and for sliding of the tubular on the rim is loss of power
just because this is a specific deformation or flex that is bad
this can happen
the proof of this that sometimes you can see that the glue is "beading out" at the edge of the tire
my suspicion is that the pros are using much harder glue because:
1. they need it when they are braking on long descents (--> remember Beloki!)
2. they do not need to fix the wheel on the road
3. the team mechanics have more time and means to remove the flat tubular that is hard glued on the rim


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:42 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:53 pm
Posts: 9
ontheroad wrote:
any back and for sliding of the tubular on the rim is loss of power
just because this is a specific deformation or flex that is bad
this can happen
the proof of this that sometimes you can see that the glue is "beading out" at the edge of the tire
my suspicion is that the pros are using much harder glue because:
1. they need it when they are braking on long descents (--> remember Beloki!)
2. they do not need to fix the wheel on the road
3. the team mechanics have more time and means to remove the flat tubular that is hard glued on the rim


Holy zombie thread batman! Has anyone conducted any more glue/rolling resistance research in these past 10 years?

Beloki didn't suddenly roll a tubie in a corner, he started sliding the rear, which then caught suddenly, and then pulled the tubie off the rim. It didn't have anything to do with the glue going soft from the heat in the rims from the descent or the lateral forces while cornering, and had all to do with the extreme and sudden lateral force exerted on the tubular when it caught the slide.

Not too sure team mechanics have all that much time in their hands, specially during a race. They are known to stay up till the wee hours of the morning getting the bikes ready, and 18 sure seem to me like a lot of tires to glue.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:49 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 4:33 am
Posts: 1060
Thread from the dead, all right.

Everything has changed with adhesives: new formulations, different treatments of base tapes, and of course the evolution of more tubular tapes instead of tubular glue, and more methodologies to go along with new products.

However, pros are not using harder glues. They need glues that handle heat and that can detach and reattach electrostatically. That's what your basic Mastik One does so well. You will inevitably tear a small spot loose on your glue job at some point, either in a sprint where you pull the rear loose or when you're on a descent or turn or have to twist to steer around a problem, or whatever. That loose spot has to readhere reliably or the whole tire will peel off. Traditional track cements like shellac don't do that, and attempts at making harder rim cements have been singularly unsuccessful.

And it's not like the tire is sliding back and forth in the rim cement. The tire casing itself will account for much more movement than the glued joint will.

And harder glues aren't necessarily any stabler. Beloki's problem was a glue that softened in the heat. And that's also one reason why you see glue ooze out from under the edges of the rim from time to time.

Just use Mastik One. It works. Most of the pros use it. It's ubiquitous at worlds-level track events. Nobody ever has a shellac pot any longer. And the days of experiencing with auto adhesives, construction adhesives, neoprene glue, and the like are past. If not for your own safety, learn to use Mastik One properly to make everyone around you safe.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:14 am 
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Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:10 pm
Posts: 245
Just glue. Watch YT videos on how quickly and simply pro mechanics glue tubs.


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Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:14 am 


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