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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 5:56 am 
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rruff wrote:
I think if I was going to invest in a fancy wheel building machine, it would be something that facilitates stress-relieving... ie consistently with the ability to gauge the tension change.


Completely agree! In our shop, the wheel builder has had the same assistant for the last 5 years who laces wheels and does the initial truing of FRONT WHEELS only --- the rest is the master's job, stress-relieving is the key to the best wheels, used by many Italian professional riders.


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Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 5:56 am 


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 6:47 am 
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Location: Alto, NM
StuTheWeak wrote:
In that video the guy is using a lever to stress relieve with the wheel in the stand. The lever costs 90 euro...throw in 19% VAT and shipping...easily $150. Though i'd still like to have it.


Interesting. I guess that lever has a rubber roller that fits against the rim. I question whether you'd be able to add enough additional stress to the DS spokes, since lateral forces mostly effect the NDS. Also, you'd want to make sure it only contacts the brake track of the rim.

Provided that you can get enough force on the DS spokes, a hydraulic piston on each side with an adjustable force, and a series of small rollers (to spread the load) that run on the brake track... would be slick.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:48 pm 
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Location: Springdale, AR
I'd be willing to bet with that lever you could put more stress on that rim than you could while riding it.

My plan of attack would be to stress-relieve, check my dial-gauges, true, stress-relieve, check my dial-gauges, true, stress-relieve, check my dial-gauges, true, stress-relieve, check my dial-gauges, true, stress-relieve, check my dial-gauges, true, stress-relieve, check my dial-gauges, true....

Repeat until I can't get the wheels to come out of true with reasonable amount of stress. How do you know how much is reasonable? Not sure. Maybe I could use a torque wrench to apply side-load stress...that way I could see the amount of force being applied :)

Then I could brag that while applying X amount of side-load my wheels remain true. I know I'm pretty anal, but this stuff is cool!

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Specialized Allez 06' "Rain Bike" 21.50lbs
Neuvation F100 11' "Road Bike" 16.80lbs
Specialized Tarmac Pro 11' "WW Bike" 14.25lbs


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 5:44 pm 
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whats so hard about putting the wheel on the floor axle end to the ground and just pushing down on the rim, do you really need a special tool. Ive been doing that for years.

Started off just building wheel in the bike using the brake pads for guides, brought a park stand just to make life a bit easier but both ways lets you build a wheel thats round and true enough


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:21 pm 
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Location: Alto, NM
StuTheWeak wrote:
I'd be willing to bet with that lever you could put more stress on that rim than you could while riding it.


Maybe lateral stress... but the crossed spokes will be subjected to significant torque stress as well. Levering the rim only supplies lateral force... no radial either.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:31 pm 
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Location: Islip, NY
bikedoc wrote:
whats so hard about putting the wheel on the floor axle end to the ground and just pushing down on the rim, do you really need a special tool. Ive been doing that for years.


It's not good to sideload the bearings like that. I do the same thing, but I do it on a small table with a hole in it for the axles.

Eric

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:49 am 
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As it turns out I bought the "Classic" model. It's not designed to use that lever to stress the wheels in the stand :(

The shortcoming it has is that it doesn't have enough clamping force on the axle...it just uses the quick release for a common wheel. The "Comfort" model comes with clamps built into the arms that gives it the strength to use the lever for stressing. That really bites :roll:

I just need to devise a way to increase the clamping force of the "Classic" model. Any mechanical engineers in the house?

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Specialized Allez 06' "Rain Bike" 21.50lbs
Neuvation F100 11' "Road Bike" 16.80lbs
Specialized Tarmac Pro 11' "WW Bike" 14.25lbs


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:12 am 
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Location: Alto, NM
StuTheWeak wrote:
Any mechanical engineers in the house?


A few...

If the QR won't hold it, then I wouldn't bet on the rest of the wheel holding up very well.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 2:23 pm 
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ergott wrote:
bikedoc wrote:
whats so hard about putting the wheel on the floor axle end to the ground and just pushing down on the rim, do you really need a special tool. Ive been doing that for years.


It's not good to sideload the bearings like that. I do the same thing, but I do it on a small table with a hole in it for the axles.

Eric


you would have to be very very fat to apply enough force to damage the bearing, the holes good idea as some axles push out if you push on the end of them not the cap


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 7:04 pm 
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Use an RWS sqewer http://www.dtswiss.com/Products/Components/RWS.aspx in place of a normal QR.

We use them to hold a wheel in place with our DT Swiss truing stands Image

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:19 pm 
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I'd like to know, if there's a stand (in the reasonable $$$) that can true,round & dish a wheel at the same time.
This centri-thing is brilliant, but building a wheel from scratch won't save time from truing- dishing- checking and all over again. The self-centering feature is not reliable IMO.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:44 pm 
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I'd argue that the centrimaster dishes as you true. You find center/dish when you use the "centering thingy". That's a technical term. The stand has a centering tool built into the stand where as other stands do not.

Seriously, my brain cannot grasp as to why the "centri"-master would not dish the wheel in the stand. I'd argue that's one of its features.

More over if you have the money (<~$1,100 shipped) I'd buy the "comfort" model w/ lever. You can true, round, dish AND stress relieve without taking the wheel out of the stand. I think I can do all these things in my "classic" model.

First I'm going to bolt the base to something very solid...like a piece of high-carbon, 1-inch plate steel. I'd prefer it was welded, but it would ruin the galvanized finish on the base. Then I should be able to torque on that b!tch six ways from Sunday :D

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Specialized Allez 06' "Rain Bike" 21.50lbs
Neuvation F100 11' "Road Bike" 16.80lbs
Specialized Tarmac Pro 11' "WW Bike" 14.25lbs


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:41 pm 
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Stu, I'd really want your help on this.
I'm a WW (Wheelbuilder Wannabe :lol:),
I'm working on my DIY stand, I'm trying to find a way to self-center the f..thing, I'd like to know
how your stand centers, you place a knowned dished wheel & place the <thingy>, or it's something
I didn't get on the video

Thanks


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:49 pm 
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Location: Springdale, AR
Eric (ergott) is the pro wheelbuilder...you should direct questions towards him.

With that said I think I can high light the centrimaster's features though. Take notice of the "V-block" located on the center arm of the centrimaster stands. It's a V-shaped piece of metal that pivots upward to kiss the bottom of a rim when a wheel is inserted. The bottom of that "V-block" is perfectly center in relation to the hub-arms.

With that said in the video you see the gentleman, using a non-trued & non-dished wheel in the stand, proceed to....

1.) Lift up on the "V-block" to snugly wedge against the bottom of the rim. This ensures the rim, at that precise moment in space-time, is centered with the hub-arms and as a consequence centered on the hub.

2.) While ensuring constant contact with the "V-block" and rim...he zeros the trueing gauge (horizontal gauge) to essentially find the center of the rim in relation to the hub's center.

3.) Next he proceeds to true the wheel. His trueing gauge (horizontal gauge) is set to zero (0) in relation to the hub's center as a consequence of his previous actions. He proceeds to effectively true the wheel in relation to the hub's center. Thus properly dishing the wheel while trueing.

A DIY stand doesn't have that centering gizmo. So, you'd have to do some engineering work to build yourself a centering gizmo. That centering gizmo, I guess, is the reason it's so pricey. If I can infact stress relieve the wheels while in the stand it will be worth every penny in my book.


Attachments:
vblock.jpg
vblock.jpg [ 68.61 KiB | Viewed 446 times ]

_________________
Specialized Allez 06' "Rain Bike" 21.50lbs
Neuvation F100 11' "Road Bike" 16.80lbs
Specialized Tarmac Pro 11' "WW Bike" 14.25lbs


Last edited by StuTheWeak on Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:49 pm 


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:45 pm 
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Location: Springdale, AR
K...so after paying $54 to customs I finally got my truing stand. Let me tell you first that this thing is massive. Not large, but MASSIVE. It's north of 40lbs for sure. Just surprises me I guess. In the photos it doesn't really scream out "I'm heavy".

Guess I won't have to bolt it to a piece of plate steel after all. Think if I bolt it to a table it will be fine so long as the table doesn't collapse under it's weight. Don't get me wrong. I'm happy it's stout and will resist torque. Much better than a flimsey piece of plastic or aluminum. I think Germans have a great reputation when it comes to engineering. This is certainly an industrial grade truing stand.

Long after the human race is extinct all there will be is roaches and this truing stand. I'll try playing with it tonight and see how it handles.

_________________
Specialized Allez 06' "Rain Bike" 21.50lbs
Neuvation F100 11' "Road Bike" 16.80lbs
Specialized Tarmac Pro 11' "WW Bike" 14.25lbs


Last edited by StuTheWeak on Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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