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 Post subject: Re: Enves new 6.7 wheels
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:07 pm 
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williamsf1 wrote:
sorry, TUNE build by FWB (madcow)

mig 70
mag 170

20/24...


Replace the drive side spokes with Sapim Race or DT Competitions. That will improve things.

Eric

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 Post subject: Re: Enves new 6.7 wheels
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:28 am 
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ok I will look into it, can you explain why CX Ray would be not as stiff?

http://fairwheelbikes.com/sapim-cxray-s ... -3779.html

just curious, as currently they are still the best wheels I have ever ridden! just seeing if there is any room for improvement....

http://fairwheelbikes.com/sapim-race-sp ... -4627.html

I can't see how the race version would be stiffer?

If you could explain that would be excellent!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Enves new 6.7 wheels
Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:28 am 


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 Post subject: Re: Enves new 6.7 wheels
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:17 am 
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Not truth, thought Adrien tested the EDGE wheels as being n the soft side? This was tested, so I did like to hear some figures......
Giant DK wrote:
The wheels or rather the rims are super stiff which is why they in some cases, like mine, touches the brakepads on the rearwheel. A weak rim will bend under load when being loaded sideways which means that even though it will bend at the road surface it will not bend as much the other way at the brakepads. The deformation of a super stiff rim look more like a rotation around the center which means it will deflect more at the oposite site of the load.

If I set my brakepads just a little wider than normal I have no problems.

A hub with better geometries will be better to prevent the stiff rims to rotate around the hub. Rumors says ENVE are coming with their own hubset with optimized geomtry to their rims.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Enves new 6.7 wheels
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:27 am 
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williamsf1 wrote:
I seem to have to have the brakes open on the rear especially.... maybe 6-8mm each side??? to stop it touching under heavy load, climbing/sprinting???


I don't know about the spokes. I don't doubt your expertise that the spokes you mention would stiffen things up, but I'm not convinced the wheels are the sole problem.

I don't know jack about wheelbuilding compared to others here, but I've got a hard time believing that wheel flex can be the only source for moving 6-8mm.

Didn't Adrien have 31N/mm for an ENVE .25 rim with 20 spokes? Not sure if that was a front or rear, but you'd need 180 to 240 N to move a wheel that far, and that's a the top of the wheel. Maybe I've got it all wrong in my head though. :noidea:

We are about the same weight, I have the exact same wheels likely built by the same guy and while I haven't really put them to the test I haven't had them touch my brake pads that are only like one, maybe 2 mm away, so I find this very strange.

Have you tried a different QR or the same wheel in a different bike?

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 Post subject: Re: Enves new 6.7 wheels
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:24 pm 
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williamsf1 wrote:

If you could explain that would be excellent!!!


Sapim Race spokes are stiffer because there is more material. All high-end spokes are made from stainless steel. CX-Rays do not have some magic formula. The bladed portion is forged from a 1.5mm round section of spoke (the Sapim Laser). The Race spokes are 1.8mm along the same portion of the spoke. Race spokes have 43% more material along their length than CX-Rays. More material, more resistance to stretch. Less stretch, stiffer.

CX-Rays are purported to have a longer life span because of the blade forging process, but I haven't had issues with round spokes either. The rim is typically the wear item in a wheel built right due to braking. I choose CX-Rays for wheels where aerodynamics are a priority. If not, I use round, double-butted spokes. You won't find heavier gauge, bladed spokes that will work for the drive side of your wheel. Using Race spokes will improve the wheel for you and have an unmeasurable impact on the aerodynamics of your bike. Rim shape is far more important.

-Eric

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 Post subject: Enves new 6.7 wheels
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:10 pm 
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ergott wrote:
williamsf1 wrote:

If you could explain that would be excellent!!!


Sapim Race spokes are stiffer because there is more material. All high-end spokes are made from stainless steel. CX-Rays do not have some magic formula. The bladed portion is forged from a 1.5mm round section of spoke (the Sapim Laser). The Race spokes are 1.8mm along the same portion of the spoke. Race spokes have 43% more material along their length than CX-Rays. More material, more resistance to stretch. Less stretch, stiffer.

CX-Rays are purported to have a longer life span because of the blade forging process, but I haven't had issues with round spokes either. The rim is typically the wear item in a wheel built right due to braking. I choose CX-Rays for wheels where aerodynamics are a priority. If not, I use round, double-butted spokes. You won't find heavier gauge, bladed spokes that will work for the drive side of your wheel. Using Race spokes will improve the wheel for you and have an unmeasurable impact on the aerodynamics of your bike. Rim shape is far more important.

-Eric

Eric, what about the DT Aero Comps on the drive side for when all the other spokes are otherwise bladed? It would just keep things a little more balance looking aesthetically. I have three sets of nemesis rims which, for two of the sets, I'll just be building with std DT comps onto Record hubs. I'm with you on the "more material = stronger" wheel, common sense really. But for the third I might try these Aero comps laced to a campy Chris king hub (when they come out).

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 Post subject: Re: Enves new 6.7 wheels
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:25 pm 
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Calnago wrote:
Eric, what about the DT Aero Comps on the drive side for when all the other spokes are otherwise bladed?


You have to have the spoke holes slotted and make sure the lengths are available. I use Sapim CX-Speed spokes for certain builds. They are 2.6 along the blade so they fit in some hubs. I've had to take a spiral scroll saw blade to other hubs. I do this by hand and remove a little material towards the center of the hub.

This set I do has the CX-Speed spokes on the drive side.
click for high rez.
Image

-Eric

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 Post subject: Enves new 6.7 wheels
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:45 pm 
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ergott wrote:
Calnago wrote:
Eric, what about the DT Aero Comps on the drive side for when all the other spokes are otherwise bladed?


You have to have the spoke holes slotted and make sure the lengths are available. I use Sapim CX-Speed spokes for certain builds. They are 2.6 along the blade so they fit in some hubs. I've had to take a spiral scroll saw blade to other hubs. I do this by hand and remove a little material towards the center of the hub.

This set I do has the CX-Speed spokes on the drive side.
click for high rez.
Image

-Eric

Regarding the slotting of the hubs, I think you're thinking of the DT new aero or Aero speeds? I'm not sure when DT came out with the Aero Comps, but they are only 2.3mm blade width (1.2mm thick versus .9 for the aerolites) which should fit through a normal hub hole.

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 Post subject: Re: Enves new 6.7 wheels
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:53 pm 
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Calnago wrote:
Regarding the slotting of the hubs, I think you're thinking of the DT new aero or Aero speeds? I'm not sure when DT came out with the Aero Comps, but they are only 2.3mm blade width (1.2mm thick versus .9 for the aerolites) which should fit through a normal hub hole.


I have to check those spokes out.

Thanks,
Eric

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 Post subject: Re: Enves new 6.7 wheels
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:44 pm 
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maxima wrote:
Not truth, thought Adrien tested the EDGE wheels as being n the soft side? This was tested, so I did like to hear some figures......


There's a world of difference between the old Edge rims to the new Smart ones! These are much, much stiffer (and heavier too, as you can't make a rim that wide without adding material). I am sure that the theory Giant DK have is right, as I have both 1.65 and ENVE 6.7 wheels built with same DT 240 hubs and Cx-ray spokes. Only the 6.7's hit the brakepads. But if I make my own unscientific test and load the wheel laterally, the 6.7's are clearly stiffer.


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 Post subject: Re: Enves new 6.7 wheels
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:02 pm 
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ergott wrote:
Calnago wrote:
Regarding the slotting of the hubs, I think you're thinking of the DT new aero or Aero speeds? I'm not sure when DT came out with the Aero Comps, but they are only 2.3mm blade width (1.2mm thick versus .9 for the aerolites) which should fit through a normal hub hole.


I have to check those spokes out.

Thanks,
Eric

Yeah, me too. I like your HED Belgium build by the way. I'm currently running a set of those rims for the winter.

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 Post subject: Re: Enves new 6.7 wheels
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:34 pm 
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Those Belgium HEDs are much nicer than the FRs.

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 Post subject: Re: Enves new 6.7 wheels
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:04 am 
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I am running a set of those HEDs as well. Got them for Flanders and Roubaix this year.

I actually had a similar problem with brake rub with the HEDs. I threw them on the truing stand and found a loose spoke, fixed it to within 1mm variance. Still rubbed. Adjusted brakes, still rubbed. Thought there might be play in the hub, tightened it up, still rubbed. Finally took off crappy Reynold's skewers and put on Easton ones from old training wheels, problem fixed. I don't know if the stiff wheels lack of flex puts more stress across the skewer but never had that problem with any QR before except one time I got grease on the rear QR by mistake.


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 Post subject: Re: Enves new 6.7 wheels
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:49 pm 
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Calnago wrote:
Regarding the slotting of the hubs, I think you're thinking of the DT new aero or Aero speeds? I'm not sure when DT came out with the Aero Comps, but they are only 2.3mm blade width (1.2mm thick versus .9 for the aerolites) which should fit through a normal hub hole.


Indeed the new DT Aero Comp are compatible with standard 2.4mm holes. They will fit any hub with standard flanges.
This new Aero Comp descends from the DT Competition, like the DT Aerolite descends from the DT Revolution. Thus Aero Comp and Competition weight as much, like Aerolite/Revolution. Difference is that the Aero Comp is bladed, its thickness is 1.2mm against 0.9mm for the Aerolite. It is a laterally stiffer spoke.
Nevertheless, because it is bladed, it will be laterally flexier than the DT Competition: the thickness of the spoke matters more than its width for the lateral stiffness, it is the dimensions that directly resists to lateral forces (second moment of area).

@williamf1: if your 6.7 rim the brake pads, I'd advise you first have the spoke tension controlled and second you check if you have any play at the hub.
For sure the 6.7 rims are super stiff. Their weight, their width must come with stiffness, I don't see how the rim by itself would be soft. But I have not performed any lab test on our bench with these rims yet so this is only common sense.
Third, and this is an important thing to know, most stiff wheels come with a higher deflection between the brake pads than soft wheels or extremely stiff wheels. It is also probably the reason why the rim rubs the brake pads.
Finally, the deflection of 6/8mm is absolutely impossible on the road. Basically the lateral load a rim have to deal, near the ground, while standing on the bike does not exceed 100N, which in the worse case make the rim move between the brake pads about 1.00mm. I actually never tested any wheel moving more than 0.95mm at 180° from where the load is applied.
Oh and last but not least, drchull points at the QR issue. You should indeed give another set of QR a try.

I hope this will help.

Best regards.
Adrien.

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 Post subject: Re: Enves new 6.7 wheels
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:23 pm 
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Adrien wrote:
Nevertheless, because it is bladed, it will be laterally flexier than the DT Competition: the thickness of the spoke matters more than its width for the lateral stiffness, it is the dimensions that directly resists to lateral forces (second moment of area).

Best regards.
Adrien.


It's a pleasure to discuss wheels with you again. I would like to offer a second opinion.

The forces on a spoke are along it's length. They are pulled to tension and stay in tension throughout their life in a well built wheel. Therefore, a bladed spoke will not change a wheel's overall lateral stiffness in comparison to the same spoke with a round shape.

Thanks,
Eric

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 Post subject: Re: Enves new 6.7 wheels
Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:23 pm 


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