HOT: Active* forum members generally gain 5% discount at starbike.com store!
Weight Weenies
* FAQ    * Search    * Trending Topics
* Login   * Register
HOME Listings Articles FAQ Contact About




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 322 posts ] 
Go to page Previous  1 ... 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18 ... 22  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: 2012 scott FOIL
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:38 am
Posts: 497
My point is, where are you drawing the line here?

Are deep carbon wheels "all in your head" too? Is STI shifting "all in your head"? Aero helmets? Shoecovers? Skinsuits? Anything cycling related that wasn't developed in the 19th century?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2012 scott FOIL
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:34 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:32 pm
Posts: 7412
Location: Los Angeles / Glendale, California
Pretext: This is in the Scott FOIL thread... I do like the FOIL, I think it's a great balance between the 'aero trend', stiffness, weight, and aesthetics.



Eventually we'll all be on aero bikes then?

But, really, if you're a fat ass you'll be quite un-aero.

Actually, the greatest improvements any person can make to being aero on a road bike (non-TT) are on the person themselves. Wasn't this tested & found to be true by some magazine nearly a decade ago? (It's so old that I can barely remember which magazine, but I remember they listed improvements by margin of gain and frame was way, way, way, way, way down on the list... well after helmet, clothes, gloves... wheels eventually ended up on the list, too, above the frame).

It feels like we're just circling back to what they've figured out way back then: the least aero object is the person riding the bike. Make that person more 'aero' and you'll have significant gains...

Heck, there was a recent example from Colorado: one racer sets up his NON-AERO FRAME as a TT bike, does significantly better than other top competitors on their full TT setups. Guess what the greatest factor is there, all else being equal? The rider. The frame? Not so much as we're lead to believe by trends and marketing. (and I'm involved with marketing, it's part of what I do, but let's get a reality check in here)

But, again, in a race that isn't a TT? So many other factors go into winning and not-winning. Despite all the data-from-the-wind-tunnel, the reality of a race is different. Again, NON TT.

In a TT, when you're riding all alone, sure - aero will be a more significant factor. Your position on the bike will still be the greatest factor.... then everything else falls in line. Eventually you'll get to the frame.

As a not-off-topic but side comment: my road bike is just as fast as Thor Hushvod's Aero road bike... when they're both up against a wall and we're having coffee. It's the RIDER that is the biggest factor, the RIDER that wins the race, not the bike. Similarly, what's with all the 'aero' development being done in a windtunnel without a rider on top of it, in motion? Great. Put a rider on top of it, things change. Unfortunately bikes aren't racing themselves, the riders are racing. Scott did their aero development with a dummy RIDER in the wind tunnel. Coincidentally, Simon Smart did aero development for Enve with frame and rider on top in the wind tunnel. Guess what those two companies have realized more than the others? The most obvious thing: THE RIDER matters most. Marginal gains happen well after the rider. Throw in an actual race and your marginal gains are even less of a factor.

But hey, gotta make a buck and the best way to get people to buy something is to present a marginal gain to someone, marketing will let them forget about just improving themselves first... perhaps by riding, training, nutrition, and everything else. Your marginal gain won't mean sh*t if you don't have the confidence, skill, and so on (see previous post).

Yes, everything in weight and aero is all about marginal gains. Perhaps work on the biggest factor first (YOU) then add in the other stuff to get closer and closer to the 'ultimate' aero or weight goal. That applies to being both a Weight Weenie and an Aero Weenie. Even by then, your marginal gains won't matter in an actual race, because everything will end up being more-or-less equal for equipment, and we're back to YOU being the most significant factor.

Look, it's even evident on a track. They're pretty much all running the same wheels. Same clothes, more or less same helmet. Frames? Basically the same. Guess what determines a winner? The rider.
Image

_________________
Exp001 || TeamLACBC


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2012 scott FOIL
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:34 pm 


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2012 scott FOIL
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:27 pm
Posts: 12
JensW wrote:
Grannen wrote:
1:st post, yay me!

been looking at scott-sports.com on that foil team issue. On their pics there's 404 clinchers, but in the spec it says 404 FC carbon/alloy clincher. anyone knows what wheels that bike acctually come with?


the one with aluminum/carbon. at least thats the way here in sweden. the premium has the full carbon clincher :D


so, in sweden you get the "old 404's"? but yes i know that on the premium you get the new FC 404 carbonclincher.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2012 scott FOIL
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:59 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 6:25 pm
Posts: 1401
prendrefeu wrote:
Yes, everything in weight and aero is all about marginal gains. [b] Perhaps work on the biggest factor first (YOU) then add in the other stuff to get closer and closer to the 'ultimate' aero or weight goal.


While in principle I agree with you, why would I have to work on myself first and then "the other stuff", when I can do it all at the same time?

Those things don't contradict each other.

I'm sure Fabian would have appreciated an extra mm at the finish of the Worlds road race this year and wouldn't mind giving up a couple in the TT.

It all matters, always.

Speaking about marginal gains, once you've fixed all the things you mentiond as being more important than the frame, the frame all of a sudden becomes a lot more important because it contributes a larger percentage to overall drag and, while I'm not an aerodynamicist (not even sure if they are called that), I'd guess that once you've cleaned up the stuff hitting the air before the frame, you've got a way better chance to actually make an impact with making your frame more aero.

_________________
"Nothing compares to the simple pleasures of a bike ride," said John F. Kennedy, a man who had the pleasure of Marilyn Monroe.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2012 scott FOIL
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:32 pm
Posts: 7412
Location: Los Angeles / Glendale, California
Ypsylon wrote:
Why would I have to work on myself first and then "the other stuff", when I can do it all at the same time?


Yes, you're right there. All at the same time though.

Eventually we will see more aero bikes winning races... when the entire peloton are all riding 'aero' bikes. :wink:

_________________
Exp001 || TeamLACBC


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2012 scott FOIL
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:06 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 9:41 pm
Posts: 724
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Grannen wrote:
JensW wrote:
Grannen wrote:
1:st post, yay me!

been looking at scott-sports.com on that foil team issue. On their pics there's 404 clinchers, but in the spec it says 404 FC carbon/alloy clincher. anyone knows what wheels that bike acctually come with?


the one with aluminum/carbon. at least thats the way here in sweden. the premium has the full carbon clincher :D


so, in sweden you get the "old 404's"? but yes i know that on the premium you get the new FC 404 carbonclincher.


yes. the premium has DA di2 and the al carbon clincher 404 rims :D and team, with sram red has the "old" heavier rims. why? what i have heard, from a friend talking to the scott representative person here in sweden, it was because then didn´t want the third best bike, to be lighter then the second best. considering that sram red it much lighter then DA di2


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2012 scott FOIL
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:35 am
Posts: 439
prendrefeu wrote:
[i][size=85]
Actually, the greatest improvements any person can make to being aero on a road bike (non-TT) are on the person themselves. Wasn't this tested & found to be true by some magazine nearly a decade ago? (It's so old that I can barely remember which magazine, but I remember they listed improvements by margin of gain and frame was way, way, way, way, way down on the list... well after helmet, clothes, gloves... wheels eventually ended up on the list, too, above the frame).


I remember this study. I think it was done by researchers at MIT. And if I remember correctly, it wasn't a straight up analysis of aero gain, but an analysis of aero gain vs. cost. This is an important distinction.

So, not wearing gloves produced the most aero gain because there was no cost involved. Aerobars and helmets, likewise, do not cost nearly as much as a frame or wheelset, hence the greater aero improvement compared to cost.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2012 scott FOIL
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:55 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:32 pm
Posts: 7412
Location: Los Angeles / Glendale, California
There was the MIT study, but I'm referring to another one which preceded the MIT study and it was performed by a magazine... can't recall which one though. Tour, maybe? :noidea: My internet memory is getting frail, must be all those damn internet memes overwhelming the storage in my brain. :lol:

_________________
Exp001 || TeamLACBC


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2012 scott FOIL
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:18 pm
Posts: 588
Location: Lyon
prendrefeu wrote:
There was the MIT study, but I'm referring to another one which preceded the MIT study and it was performed by a magazine... can't recall which one though. Tour, maybe? :noidea: My internet memory is getting frail, must be all those damn internet memes overwhelming the storage in my brain. :lol:


BikeRadar

http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/h ... ero-19273/

_________________
BIKE DESIGN AND +

http://cds-0.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2012 scott FOIL
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:27 pm
Posts: 12
JensW wrote:
Grannen wrote:
JensW wrote:
Grannen wrote:
1:st post, yay me!

been looking at scott-sports.com on that foil team issue. On their pics there's 404 clinchers, but in the spec it says 404 FC carbon/alloy clincher. anyone knows what wheels that bike acctually come with?


the one with aluminum/carbon. at least thats the way here in sweden. the premium has the full carbon clincher :D


so, in sweden you get the "old 404's"? but yes i know that on the premium you get the new FC 404 carbonclincher.


yes. the premium has DA di2 and the al carbon clincher 404 rims :D and team, with sram red has the "old" heavier rims. why? what i have heard, from a friend talking to the scott representative person here in sweden, it was because then didn´t want the third best bike, to be lighter then the second best. considering that sram red it much lighter then DA di2


have been doing some reserch and here's what i got today in my mailbox from a Scott rep in th UK
Quote:
I’ve done some digging and they are 404 Firecrest with an alloy sidewall, this wheel has been made for us (also has slightly different decals and colors) at the moment the only other way to get this wheel other than on a Scott is to get Zipp/Sram to build it espesialy but this will probably cost.


so now I wonder about an acctual weigth on those wheels, My best guess would be that they weigh in on about the same as the old 404's (1658g/pair). but a 404 FC with an alloy breaksurface wouldn't be all that bad. but then again if the weightpenalty is too high what would be the point of adding those alloy bits?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2012 scott FOIL
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:27 pm
Posts: 12
update, got a new mail from that Scott rep the other day:
Quote:
There is no (or I can’t find) official weights so I have weighed the wheels on out digital post scales,
Front is 807 g
Rear is 903g
These are the true weights rather than expected weights sometimes used in pr/advertising,
They have been weighed with rim tapes/grease but no tires/cassette


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2012 scott FOIL
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 4:49 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 9:41 pm
Posts: 724
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Grannen wrote:
JensW wrote:
Grannen wrote:
JensW wrote:
Grannen wrote:
1:st post, yay me!

been looking at scott-sports.com on that foil team issue. On their pics there's 404 clinchers, but in the spec it says 404 FC carbon/alloy clincher. anyone knows what wheels that bike acctually come with?


the one with aluminum/carbon. at least thats the way here in sweden. the premium has the full carbon clincher :D


so, in sweden you get the "old 404's"? but yes i know that on the premium you get the new FC 404 carbonclincher.


yes. the premium has DA di2 and the al carbon clincher 404 rims :D and team, with sram red has the "old" heavier rims. why? what i have heard, from a friend talking to the scott representative person here in sweden, it was because then didn´t want the third best bike, to be lighter then the second best. considering that sram red it much lighter then DA di2


have been doing some reserch and here's what i got today in my mailbox from a Scott rep in th UK
Quote:
I’ve done some digging and they are 404 Firecrest with an alloy sidewall, this wheel has been made for us (also has slightly different decals and colors) at the moment the only other way to get this wheel other than on a Scott is to get Zipp/Sram to build it espesialy but this will probably cost.


so now I wonder about an acctual weigth on those wheels, My best guess would be that they weigh in on about the same as the old 404's (1658g/pair). but a 404 FC with an alloy breaksurface wouldn't be all that bad. but then again if the weightpenalty is too high what would be the point of adding those alloy bits?


even if it´s "special made" (i doubt it :D), i don´t se why i shouldn't get the al carbon rims, when i pay 8400 euro (thats the price in sweden).


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2012 scott FOIL
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:54 am
Posts: 359
Location: Australia
Hi all.

Sorry for hijacking this thread but i just got my Foil R2 and weighed everything. Just thought i'd post the results if anyone is interested.
The R2 is made from the heavier HMF carbon, not to be mistaken from the lighter HMX carbon like the Foil Premium or Foil 10 model.
It's a size medium 54cm.


Frame - Scott Foil R2 (Medium 54cm) - 921g
Fork - Scott Foil R2 - 413g
Stem cap + bolt + compression plug - 34g
Headset - Ritchey WCS Integrated - 61g
Seat Mast - Ritchey Carbon - 199g
Seat Mast Clamp bolt - 24g
Derailleur Hanger + bolts - 12g

TOTAL - 1635g



Image
FRAME 54CM MEDIUM - including the headset press fit cups (i wasn't about to remove them just for the scales)
no hanger
no seat post bolt
no cable guide under the BB


Image
FORK - Weighed with the compression cap.
Compression cap weighs 24grams so final weight for the fork is 384grams


Image
SEAT CLAMP BOLT


Image
DERAILLEUR HANGER + BOLTS


Image
HEADSET - does not include the cups that are pressed into the headtube



Image
STEM CAP + COMPRESSION PLUG + BOLT

Image
The story so far...
please ignore the cockpit, the stem and handlebars are just there until the 3T Ergonova handlbar and carbon stem arrive :twisted:

_________________
2012 Scott Foil Premium


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2012 scott FOIL
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:34 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:56 pm
Posts: 43
My team provides me this bike for the 2012 season! I love it


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2012 scott FOIL
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:34 pm 


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2012 scott FOIL
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:08 pm
Posts: 194
Funny arguments here. The most silly that stands out to me is the use of GC guys as a data set. Those aren't exactly the guys who are catching a lot of wind in races, or fighting wind to win them. GC guys fight gravity, not wind. In time trials, the only time they fight the wind, they run aero frames (obviously).

Now, to the FOIL. I've stated here before that I like the frame very much. I haven't tested it in the tunnel, but will be soon. But that's almost irrelevant, because I like it because it rides like a normal frame. It feels like an Addict, or a slightly less forgiving Madone. I'd pick it on ride quality alone (and looks, maybe). The aero qualities are just a side benefit. I ride A LOT of bikes (I'd wager more than just about everyone here, barring some of the industry types) and it still sits up near the top of my list in terms of ride quality for race bike.

As the technology develops, more and more aero frames will ride like this. And then the reasons to run standard frames will dwindle. It's just like light frames of old — when sub-1000g frames were truly pushing the envelope, they often rode terribly. Only the true weight weenies rode them; those who were willing to take a sacrifice in ride quality. Now, the technology has caught up and everyone can ride them happily. In the next decade, I believe aero frames will go through a similar transition. Right now, most aero frames do NOT ride as well as, for example, a Madone, SL4, SuperSix EVO, etc. But they will get there. It is perhaps the one positive side effect of the 6.8kg limit, forcing companies to think about more than just a light frame.

_________________
VeloNews Magazine/VeloNews.com tech
Contact always welcome - http://velonews.competitor.com/author/cfretz / cfretz at competitorgroup dot com.
Twitter: @CaleyFretz


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 322 posts ] 
Go to page Previous  1 ... 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18 ... 22  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], erik$, GT8, ITTY, Qman, wingguy and 66 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

   Similar Topics   Author   Replies   Views   Last post 
There are no new unread posts for this topic. Scott Foil and EPS

in Road

Martin.dk

13

2219

Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:12 am

ultimobici View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. Scott Foil

in Road

superb

0

1064

Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:03 pm

superb View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. TT fit for Scott Foil

in Road

efeballi

13

1589

Fri Jan 17, 2014 7:53 pm

efeballi View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. Scott Foil Di2 frameset

in Road

upside

3

688

Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:03 pm

Zigmeister View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. Scott Foil or Colnago EPS

in Road

camber66

7

1337

Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:32 am

camber66 View the latest post


It is currently Tue Sep 30, 2014 8:27 pm

All times are UTC + 1 hour




Advertising   –  FAQ   –  Contact   –  Convert   –  About

© Weight Weenies 2000-2013
hosted by starbike.com


How to get rid of these ads? Just register!


Powered by phpBB