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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:30 pm 
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Location: NKC, MO
Interesting. I appreciate the explanation. I need to look at my Exile Plus to see the construction.


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Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:30 pm 


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:19 pm 
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Posts: 186
ahumblecycler wrote:
@musiker - I assume you realize the Parlee Z5 frame is produced in Asia ... right? Yes I know your arguments about company accountability and all of that but at the end of the day the Z5 is Parlee's (correct me if I am wrong) first frame not produced in house. I give full credit to Parlee for acknowledging country of origin and not branding it made in USA simply because the majority of value is added in this country.


I believe that the Z4 is the first Parlee produced in Asia and have been produced there for several years. A company that have experience with making a product inhouse have a much easier time evaluating the quality when they use a subcontractor. So I have no problem with the Parlee being produced in Asia..
Once again, For the ones in the back - I have NOTHING against asian factories, nothing! Been working together with plenty of very good factories in Asia! But there are a lot of shady business going on aswell! Problem is that an average consumer have no way of knowing how the unbranded frame he bought of ebay or alibaba came into existence!
With the neo there was a bunch of positive user reviews - So I figured that it could not be all bad. Maybe compared to other cheap frames the Neo is ok. But I ended up being disapointed *shrug*
The neo I have, looks like the white one (Just in matte black).

Don't think I can add more to this thread.
Bottom line: I won't recommend anyone buying a cheap frame of ebay or alibaba.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:07 am 
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Formerly known as PezTech
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ahumblecycler wrote:



@Pez - any opinion of the Z5 being Asian made versus in-house?



Yep. They're cheaper that way. That's basically it. very good bike.

Parlee have a heck of a grip on the production control.


They had good control on the Z4 too. Bicycling reported it was made in Boston and a lot of people get that wrong as it was asian too and Parlee Never said otherwise. That was on bad reporting.


I have no problem at all with several very good frames made in Asia.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 2:33 am 
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Location: NKC, MO
@Musiker - I hope you read my entire post and realize I wish never but the best for you. I was a bit confused and you nicely summed it, which I am both thankful and appreciative.

@Pez - I have to value your input and wisdom ... thanks for chiming in. Expect a PM from me in the near future.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:08 am 
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Posts: 2083
Location: Denmark
Rick wrote:
Quote:
@Rick - I do not understand your comment about bonding of the rear triangle to the front; it is not uncommon. Please elaborate and not let us less knowledgeable fill in the gaps with our stupid fears.

With reference to the photos above:
If you look at where the chainstays attach to the bottom bracket, on bikes such as the NEO in the picture, the frame "necks down" behind the BB. It looks as if the chainstays stays were formed by one loop of material, and then bonded to the BB. They are narrow at the top and curving inward. It is not "uncommon". The Planet-X bikes are that way also, and probably some more.

But if you now compare to the PedalForce (and is also similar on Scott Addict, etc) you see that the chainstays remain full width to the bottom bracket and there is no change in contour behind the bottom bracket. The rear triangle looks like it was "built in" at the time of the main triangle was formed, rather than "added on" after the main triangle was formed.

I notice that on some of the Hong Fu frames they show both types of construction.
I am not saying one is good and one is bad, or that either is unacceptable. But it seems pretty obvious which one would be naturally expected to be stiffer and stronger.


95% of all bikes are done that way. Wether it looks like it or not. Almost all monocoque frames are done as a "multi-monocoque", thus the rear end is bonded in seperately. No problems there and it doesn't equate to loss of stiffness/strength.
I saw a cut out of a new Cannondale carbon frame, where you clearly could see from the inside that the rear was bonded, but it looked like on the Pedalforce from the outside.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:13 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:17 am
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Location: Latvia
Talking about cheap carbon. Does anyone stumbled upon Rosetti bikes? http://www.rossettibike.com/bikes.html
Seems pretty cheap considering not only carbon frame, but carbon this and carbon that.
Same cheap ebay frames?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:14 pm 
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in the industry

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Rick wrote:
Quote:
But if you now compare to the PedalForce (and is also similar on Scott Addict, etc) you see that the chainstays remain full width to the bottom bracket and there is no change in contour behind the bottom bracket. The rear triangle looks like it was "built in" at the time of the main triangle was formed, rather than "added on" after the main triangle was formed.


all rear stays (chain stays and seat stays) are bond to front triangle via adhesive.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:37 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:29 am
Posts: 38
bones wrote:
mdeth1313 wrote:
sbh1973 wrote:
Most of the folks over at RoadBikeReview, where "carbon ebay frames" has been by far and away (nothing is even close) the most popular topic for the past year or more, have had lots of success sourcing their frames directly from manufacturers or middlemen in China. The frames look great and can be custom painted by the factories. My sense is they're as good as most frames coming out of Asia. They do come with warranties and can be returned, but it is, of course, a hassle. But for $400-500 shipped (and in some cases less), that's a trade-off a lot of people are willing to make.

Check out GotoBike as well - they have a frame (028 I think) that is under 1000g.



of course, it's roadbikereview, so take that with a grain of salt as well! :mrgreen:




Exactly! Roadbikereview is one of the biggest frauds out there. All of it is pure fake advertising. I think it's called astroturfing or something. So stupid. I swear. The moderators even do it and it would not surprise me if they have multiple usernames themselves.


i just thought i would add that i have posted briefly on RBR about my purchase and i am very much a real person, and also a very happy owner of a no name carbon frame (FM015 ISP)

that said, i accept that it is a $400 product and it is just a fill-in frame until i have an insurance situation finalized

there are photos from some punter who visited the hong fu factory on that site if anyone is interested


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:52 am 
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I'd like to add a few rambling random thoughts to this thread. I neither really side pro nor con with the ebay no-name discussion. I figure adults should be allowed to decide for themselves what's best, but here are some thoughts.

It was mentioned here that it's unlikely that far East manufacturers sell items that were rejected in QC. Tell that to Ritchey as an example. They rejected an entire run of forks a few years ago because they were unsafe. It turns out rather than destroy them the forks were sold out the back door. What's worse is whoever bought them then went and had them badged as authentic Ritchey forks and sold them on ebay. This is decently documented online, but very well documented internally at Ritchey. It's also certainly not isolated to Ritchey.

The far east has some great carbon manufacturing capability, however at the same time it has some very troubling carbon manufacturing. Edge for example manufacturers some of their product in the Far East. However they do actually own a percentage of the factory. They do all the R&D themselves, they put someone they trust in charge of manufacturing and I know for a fact that they visit the factory several times a year to make sure things are being done right. Then they still have more QC when products enter the states. They are not alone in this, a ton of manufacturers do it this way, but so many others don't. On Ebay/alibaba you really don't know which type you are working with.

Are there good far east products on ebay? Certainly, and lots of them. However at the same time there are also more rejects on ebay and more defective items than are coming from mainstream manufacturers. The rejects can range from simple cosmetic blems which while a little off putting are at least still safe, to those that are simply dangerous(I'd like to think these aren't very common but can't say that with any certainty).

The point to buying from a known manufacturer is that you hope they have stricter qc to weed out the unsafe, they have better design, and they'll stand behind the product if there is a problem. (and if there is a really bad problem they'll be well insured.) Though on the other side I know of several well known brands that are common on this site that pretty much flat out refuse to warranty anything, which is a real shame.

I met someone who bought some rims from ebay a couple years ago and ended up in the hospital when one failed. Luckily for him it wasn't horrible. The medical bills came to about $10,000 he had his own insurance and he healed fairly quickly. However when he tried to contact the seller there was absolutely no response. Eventually the seller removed their account from ebay, I'd be willing to bet they opened a new one with a new name. But try to recover any damages from someone who operates anonymously in China and it can be pretty difficult at best.

At the same time I know quite a few people who have bought no name brands from both Alibaba and ebay (some have lost their money) but the overwhelming majority are pretty happy with their purchases.

So yes there's good and bad, the only real problem I see is that you don't know which you will get. So really it just comes down to the part you buy (a bottle cage won't hurt you) how much do you have to loose and how lucky do you feel. Chances are greater that you'll be happy but it sucks to end up in the other camp.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:02 am 
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i have been declined warranty on a 'lifetime warranty' frame ('handbuilt in the usa') before, i know plenty of people who have had big name stuff fail on them, its just a fact of life, particularly if you ride or race hard. to think that zipp (etc) will pay your medical bills if you have a wheel fail is not very realistic, hence most people i know have their own insurance.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:04 pm 
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madcow wrote:
I'd like to add a few rambling random thoughts to this thread. I neither really side pro nor con with the ebay no-name discussion. I figure adults should be allowed to decide for themselves what's best, but here are some thoughts.

It was mentioned here that it's unlikely that far East manufacturers sell items that were rejected in QC. Tell that to Ritchey as an example. They rejected an entire run of forks a few years ago because they were unsafe. It turns out rather than destroy them the forks were sold out the back door. What's worse is whoever bought them then went and had them badged as authentic Ritchey forks and sold them on ebay. This is decently documented online, but very well documented internally at Ritchey. It's also certainly not isolated to Ritchey.

The far east has some great carbon manufacturing capability, however at the same time it has some very troubling carbon manufacturing. Edge for example manufacturers some of their product in the Far East. However they do actually own a percentage of the factory. They do all the R&D themselves, they put someone they trust in charge of manufacturing and I know for a fact that they visit the factory several times a year to make sure things are being done right. Then they still have more QC when products enter the states. They are not alone in this, a ton of manufacturers do it this way, but so many others don't. On Ebay/alibaba you really don't know which type you are working with.

Are there good far east products on ebay? Certainly, and lots of them. However at the same time there are also more rejects on ebay and more defective items than are coming from mainstream manufacturers. The rejects can range from simple cosmetic blems which while a little off putting are at least still safe, to those that are simply dangerous(I'd like to think these aren't very common but can't say that with any certainty).

The point to buying from a known manufacturer is that you hope they have stricter qc to weed out the unsafe, they have better design, and they'll stand behind the product if there is a problem. (and if there is a really bad problem they'll be well insured.) Though on the other side I know of several well known brands that are common on this site that pretty much flat out refuse to warranty anything, which is a real shame.

I met someone who bought some rims from ebay a couple years ago and ended up in the hospital when one failed. Luckily for him it wasn't horrible. The medical bills came to about $10,000 he had his own insurance and he healed fairly quickly. However when he tried to contact the seller there was absolutely no response. Eventually the seller removed their account from ebay, I'd be willing to bet they opened a new one with a new name. But try to recover any damages from someone who operates anonymously in China and it can be pretty difficult at best.

At the same time I know quite a few people who have bought no name brands from both Alibaba and ebay (some have lost their money) but the overwhelming majority are pretty happy with their purchases.

So yes there's good and bad, the only real problem I see is that you don't know which you will get. So really it just comes down to the part you buy (a bottle cage won't hurt you) how much do you have to loose and how lucky do you feel. Chances are greater that you'll be happy but it sucks to end up in the other camp.


+1

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:05 pm 
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Location: Tenerife, Spain ||| Sydney, Australia
Cheap carbon bikes? Image

Image

We chose a plain carbon frame on purpose so we could apply our own stickers and increase our exposure with people out on the road...
Bought two Hasa frames from ebay in size 55 & 57cm. Look at the utterly disgraceful fork tube steerer!!! :x Image

Ironically I chose an aluminium steerer tube because I thought it would be stronger.
Note that these circumferential cracks are NOT visible from the outside... Hasa sandblasted over the entire thing so the dodgeyness couldn't be seen with the naked eye. :evil:

This is one of them after 61 days' use.
The 57cm version broke at the chainstay after just 60 days.
:shock:

Image

Image

Image

Image

That's why I only buy trusted brands from reputable sellers. :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:21 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 1:07 pm
Posts: 186
alexb618 wrote:
i have been declined warranty on a 'lifetime warranty' frame ('handbuilt in the usa') before, i know plenty of people who have had big name stuff fail on them, its just a fact of life, particularly if you ride or race hard. to think that zipp (etc) will pay your medical bills if you have a wheel fail is not very realistic, hence most people i know have their own insurance.


Yeah everything can fail and I am sure you can dig up customers that feel they have been mistreated from all the big brands. It is difficult to have QA catch 100% production issues (but a good company should be pretty darned close to 100%).

When serius safety issues are discovered in a batch from a branded manufacturer recalls will often be issued:
http://bythehive.com/recall/
http://smtp.schwalbetires.com/ultremo_warning_home
http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/support/ ... d_recalls/
http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml08/08354.html

Would you get the same from an ebay or albaba sourced part?

In some cases a initial no, can be switched to a yes - By putting pressure on the brand:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=78411&hilit=guru+photon

Yeah I agree 100% with Madcow..

@ProbikeHire: Hope nobody got hurt when those frames failed!?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:07 am 
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Location: Wherever there's a mountain beckoning to be climbed
synchronicity wrote:
Ironically I chose an aluminium steerer tube because I thought it would be stronger.

Aluminum is not steel. Aluminum steerer tubes can and do break JRA ... trust me, I know.


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Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:07 am 


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:52 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:57 pm
Posts: 38
Location: Helmond, Netherlands
Got mine today.... looks great (imho :lol: ). I'll start building it sometime this winter..

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