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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:33 pm 
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Formerly known as PezTech
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:lol:

If I opened a wheel company and the concern with my 1080 gram 60-66mm Deep wheels was the viability of the White Industries Hub parts, I would guess I'de hit a home run...

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:42 pm 
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If I were to open a wheel company and would be concerned about the viability of the White Industries Hub parts of my 1080 gram 60-66mm deep wheels, I would guess I would be worried too... :lol:

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Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:42 pm 


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:23 am 
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about what?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:46 am 
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Mario Jr. wrote:
11.4 wrote:

Lightweight uses DT in all wheels.



Not true... they use Tune as an option in their lighter wheels.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:38 am 
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PezTech wrote:
:lol:

If I opened a wheel company and the concern with my 1080 gram 60-66mm Deep wheels was the viability of the White Industries Hub parts, I would guess I'de hit a home run...


Kind of true, but I feel that there are so many unanswered questions. The biggest one for me, is how they were able to make a 60-66 mm deep rim with so little carbon? The wheels are so light that they must be using less material. Weight savings in the spokes, true but that's another concern. Why will these spokes *not* be susceptible to catastrophic failure a la R-SYS? Every safe design I've seen incorporates kevlar strands to prevent a broken spoke from disintegrating.

And lastly, considering the design rules that have been violated (flat spokes, v-shaped rim, etc) why wouldn't these perform worse aerodynamically than other well-proven and measured designs?

From my perspective, we only know three facts about these wheels: how they look; how much they cost; how much they weigh. A couple of test rides won't be adequate to answer all the other unknowns.

John Swanson

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:04 am 
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xnavalav8r wrote:
Mario Jr. wrote:
11.4 wrote:
Lightweight uses DT in all wheels.

Not true... they use Tune as an option in their lighter wheels.


No longer.
We stopped using TUNE ~03/2008! and switched to DT Swiss 190 Ceramic for Obermayer and Ventoux 190.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:14 am 
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PezTech wrote:
about what?

about the fact that it would be a concern, which it isn't. just saying those hubs are fine.. must be my poor english.. :D

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:12 pm 
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ScienceIsCool wrote:
PezTech wrote:
:lol:

If I opened a wheel company and the concern with my 1080 gram 60-66mm Deep wheels was the viability of the White Industries Hub parts, I would guess I'de hit a home run...


Kind of true, but I feel that there are so many unanswered questions. The biggest one for me, is how they were able to make a 60-66 mm deep rim with so little carbon? The wheels are so light that they must be using less material. Weight savings in the spokes, true but that's another concern. Why will these spokes *not* be susceptible to catastrophic failure a la R-SYS? Every safe design I've seen incorporates kevlar strands to prevent a broken spoke from disintegrating.

And lastly, considering the design rules that have been violated (flat spokes, v-shaped rim, etc) why wouldn't these perform worse aerodynamically than other well-proven and measured designs?

From my perspective, we only know three facts about these wheels: how they look; how much they cost; how much they weigh. A couple of test rides won't be adequate to answer all the other unknowns.

John Swanson


First, traditional carbon rims have more material to prevent spokes from pulling through the rim, with Mad Fibers method of attachment, this is less of an issue so that they can use less material.

Second, R-Sys type failures aren't an issue, as Mad Fiber spokes are loaded only in tension, where as the R-sys spokes are like wagon wheels with the spoke subject to tension and compression.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:37 pm 
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Also, many of the strength and weight gains come from improved carbon processes, allowing a higher ratio of carbon to resin in finished product.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:14 pm 
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strobbekoen wrote:
PezTech wrote:
about what?

about the fact that it would be a concern, which it isn't. just saying those hubs are fine.. must be my poor english.. :D


Have you seen how bad I write? How would I know if you had poor english!? :beerchug:

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:27 pm 
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Mine are going great thus far.
Very stiff, quite stable in cross-winds, nice ride quality.
No complaints.
Though they do sound a little "hollow" when going over major ruts and RR tracks, they've held up perfectly.
Just need to get them on a bike that fits me better :roll:
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:06 pm 
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Tibber67 wrote:
First, traditional carbon rims have more material to prevent spokes from pulling through the rim, with Mad Fibers method of attachment, this is less of an issue so that they can use less material.

Second, R-Sys type failures aren't an issue, as Mad Fiber spokes are loaded only in tension, where as the R-sys spokes are like wagon wheels with the spoke subject to tension and compression.


In my first round of questions, I made the point that this method of attachment (a narrow aspect ratio cut through the sidewall and sidewall loading) is so different that it's unknown what stresses there are on the sidewall absent any modelling and testing. Has this been done? You sure that this requires less material than a standard spoke bed?

And I haven't seen any tension numbers on the spokes. You sure they never experience near complete detensioning during normal loads? And complete destruction of the spoke will happen under tension or compression anyways. That is why every commercially available wheel with carbon fiber spokes is also reinforced with kevlar strands.

I'm sorry everyone for my severe skepticism. The whole scenario reminds me too much of LEW. Supposedly some guys with aerospace experience can use less material than anyone else, use questionable engineering, charge a mint and somehow make a superior product.

I'm not saying it's *impossible*, just that when you go against well established engineering principles you shouldn't be surprised when people call you on it. Actual numbers and test data should be a minimum if you're going to ask people to believe you.

John Swanson

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:03 pm 
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As for the way the spokes are attached to the rim, that is quite similar to the way carbonsports does it no ? Except here the spoke enters the rim a bit higher up while on Lightweights the spokes from each side of the hub cross in a X shape but are also bonded along the side of the rim. Either way, it would make sense you need less material as compared to wheels with standard spokes since the force of the tension of the spokes on these works on a really small surface area.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:14 pm 
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CarbonSportsGmbH wrote:
xnavalav8r wrote:
Mario Jr. wrote:
11.4 wrote:
Lightweight uses DT in all wheels.

Not true... they use Tune as an option in their lighter wheels.


No longer.
We stopped using TUNE ~03/2008! and switched to DT Swiss 190 Ceramic for Obermayer and Ventoux 190.



I stand corrected. :noidea:

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Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:14 pm 


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:58 pm 
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ScienceIsCool wrote:
And lastly, considering the design rules that have been violated (flat spokes, v-shaped rim, etc) why wouldn't these perform worse aerodynamically than other well-proven and measured designs?

You put this last but I actually think it should go first. If the rim is really v-shaped then I would want to see some wind tunnel figures before spending any money.

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