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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:23 pm 
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I've been busy...

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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:23 pm 


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:29 pm 
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Klabs I interpret that as the article says. Spoke tension does little to no effect on wheel stiffness unless the NDS spokes (it will alway be the NDS spokes unless something strange has happened) loose tension, then stiffness falls of a cliff. So Klabs I think you have the right idea. It is also what must be happening in a wheel under torque unless physics is as wrong. Physics was nearly wrong with speeding Italian Neutrino's but in the end it was only a time keeping error. The point is Physics dicates how a wheel behaves and that is how I look at a wheel.

So the article is right in every way as far as I can tell. The only thing I cannot confirm is there latteral stiffness recmendation for weight. I do think that is a little simplistic.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:01 pm 
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bm0p700f wrote:
Klabs I interpret that as the article says. Spoke tension does little to no effect on wheel stiffness unless the NDS spokes (it will alway be the NDS spokes unless something strange has happened) loose tension, then stiffness falls of a cliff. .


NDS spokes in the case of the triplet.. for instance.. are near or equal to DS spoke tension.

?


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:18 am 
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WinterRider wrote:
NDS spokes in the case of the triplet.. for instance.. are near or equal to DS spoke tension?

Hi WinterRider, the reason that the 2:1 (24H 16:8) lacing pattern is becoming popular is because DS/NDS spoke tensions are almost (and perhaps are) equal. Going by the article that bm0p700f showed us, my current thoughts are the ...

Upside is ...
- if higher DS spoke tensions are used, 110 to 120 kgf or higher, then the wheel will be reasonably to very laterally and radially stiff depending on rim, hub, and spokes
- the 16spoke DS can accommodate 2x or 3x spoke lacing for good control of DS torque effects

Downside is ...
- there are only 8 NDS spokes which really can only be 0x. Lacing 1x requires longer spokes (in a 16:8 pattern) which will decrease NDS spoke tension but will place less strain on the NDS hub flange
- 0x produces poor control of torque effects, but the NDS torque effects are much lower than the DS torque effects unless a Disc brake is used (then DS/NDS torque effects will be closer for different reasons)
- rim warpage will occur when a spoke breaks ... this is because there are less NDS spokes and they are 0x

The Downside can be reduced by being able to lace NDS 2x or 3x which can be accomplished through a 2:1 (27H 18:9) or 2:1 (30H 20:10) lacing pattern ...

A 18:9 lacing can be done with a 36H hub/rim, 2x/3x/ perhaps 4x DS, 0x/1x/ perhaps 2x NDS ...
- should produce a marginally heavier wheel but with a little better lateral and radial stiffness (2 more DS spokes and 1 more NDS spoke) with better control of torque effects
- rim warpage is less likely to occur when a spoke breaks ... this is because there is 1 more NDS spoke and they can be laced 1x
- can produce a light, cheap and strong/stiff wheel with better control of torque effects

A 20:10 lacing can be done with a 40H hub/rim, 2x/3x/4x DS, 0x/1x/2x NDS ...
- should produce a marginally heavier wheel but with a little better lateral and radial stiffness (4 more DS spokes and 2 more NDS spoke) with much better control of torque effects
- rim warpage is much less likely to occur when a spoke breaks ... this because there are 2 more NDS spoke and they can be laced 2x
- can produce a light, cheap and very strong/stiff wheel with much better control of torque effects
- downside is 20H flange is not common with our current hub flanges

bm0p700f wrote:
... So Klabs I think you have the right idea. It is also what must be happening in a wheel under torque unless physics is as wrong. Physics was nearly wrong with speeding Italian Neutrino's but in the end it was only a time keeping error. The point is Physics dictates how a wheel behaves and that is how I look at a wheel.

So the article is right in every way as far as I can tell. The only thing I cannot confirm is there lateral stiffness recommendation for weight. I do think that is a little simplistic.

Thanks bm0p700f, it's been a long journey and you have helped me alot ... thank you :)


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:40 pm 
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Fair enough all the way around. If a view per the rim only affects wheel stiffness works for some.. that's cool. :beerchug:

Yet.. not in my world. :thumbup:

The 24-12 triplet I built was easily serviceable minus one spoke tension. I ran that test... that wheel constructed on a single wall rim... kgf is near equal side to side.

Lew Racing Pro VT-1 is one interesting example of thinking outside the box. Would be interesting to read more analysis of the wheel stiffness testing comparing the construction details of the wheels tested.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:31 am 
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WinterRider wrote:
The 24-12 triplet I built was easily serviceable minus one spoke tension. I ran that test... that wheel constructed on a single wall rim... kgf is near equal side to side.
Lew Racing Pro VT-1 is one interesting example of thinking outside the box. Would be interesting to read more analysis of the wheel stiffness testing comparing the construction details of the wheels tested.

Hey WinterRider, you built a 24-12 triplet, that's excellent, do you have a picture or two :) That should be a super strong/stiff wheel, even with a single wall rim ... what DS/NDS lacing patterns did you use (4x/2x, etc) and what hub/rim did you use (48H hub/36H rim) and what was the DS flange diameter :)

I have never seen a Lew Racing Pro VT-1 wheel. I will have a look ... do you have a picture :)


Last edited by KLabs on Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:46 am 
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I believe.. there's a pic of the wheel on the article we were referencing per stiffness. Take that back... a video it was... the Lev wheel.

24-12. Weinmann 219 laced 4x w radial NDS. Sapin Strong's all.. Tune BMX hub 48 hole. This hub has the holes drilled nearer the center than outside.. done well now for 700 miles.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:55 am 
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Hi WinterRider, I just had a look and I was quite excited until I saw the price :) I notice also that the spokes are fixed, so if a spoke was damaged it would probably be a factory repair ... but still very clever :)

Actually the same thing could be achieved with a 36H hub/rim using an 18:9 pattern and the hub was modified to allow for 9 J spokes to exit tangentially from the hub's rim centre (tangentially to resist torque effects) or even a 16:8 pattern using a 28H/32H/36H rim where 4/8/12 J spokes to exit tangentially from the hub's rim center ... and a small weight penalty and a little lower spoke tensions could be used. Actually, 12 interlaced hub rim centre J spokes would allow for a 2x/3x lacing which would provide control over both pulling torque effects (sprinting/climbing), and pushing torque effects (disc brakes) ... clever :)

Shame we don't have our own CNC machines to make our own hubs :) But an 18:9 or 20:10 or 22:11 (and WinterRider's 24:12) should do an excellent job and a 24:12 is still only 36 spokes :)


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:04 am 
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WinterRider wrote:
I believe.. there's a pic of the wheel on the article we were referencing per stiffness. Take that back... a video it was... the Lev wheel.

24-12. Weinmann 219 laced 4x w radial NDS. Sapin Strong's all.. Tune BMX hub 48 hole. This hub has the holes drilled nearer the center than outside.. done well now for 700 miles.

Hi WinterRider, with the the holes drilled nearer the center than outside, did you lace the NDS heads-in to avoid spokes rubbing on the flange ...
What was the weight of the rear wheel and the weight of the rim :)

Tune make a BMX hub ... I will have a look :) ...

Edit:
I had a look but can't find it, perhaps you have a picture of the wheel. BMX are usually single speed, but a picture should be interesting :)
Also, the picture you displayed is a front wheel, do you have a picture of the 24:12 rear wheel :)


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:31 pm 
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KLabs wrote:
Edit: I had a look but can't find it, perhaps you have a picture of the wheel. BMX are usually single speed, but a picture should be interesting :)
Also, the picture you displayed is a front wheel, do you have a picture of the 24:12 rear wheel :)



That is the rear pictured... . sans freewheel mounted.

Believe that TUNE BMX hub was NOS.. I replaced the axle with the best chro-moly quality one I could find with enough length. The flange holes being drilled somewhat deeper towards the center gave me the confidence to lace this radial. If I did same build today.. I'd lace what I term a '2 skip'.. with 1x. That being... four consecutive holes with the outer two spoked.. back across each other. Some reduction in flange strain I'd think.

4x laced as that effect is more near a 3x per spoke departure angle... given that hole count. My idea was the strength of a 48H wheel with that kind of even tension balance.. into that narrowly spaced rear. Weight in this case wasn't important... especially given the heavy Schwalbe tires. Yet has the weight advantage over the 48 with the lesser spoke count. A higher profile double wall rim certainly would be the way to go... this rim was the one available at the time of the build.

So.. I progressed on with lower spoke counts.. I ride a 24H triplet on my M700 26".. which is a decent wt set. This winter I assembled the 28H 700c... 18-10.. again more acceptable wt. I suspect a 24H triplet in 700 not enough for my weight.. but will assemble one for a trial.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:55 pm 
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Location: Derbyshire,Uk
Anyone know recommended tension for a 32 spoke powertap sl+ onto a Alpha 340 rim for a 78kg rider?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:42 pm 
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Easy max tension for a alpha 340 rim is 1200N so DS tension should be no more than that. 1kgf = 9.81N Kgf is some silly unit of "force". Newtons are the unit of force.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:00 pm 
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WinterRider wrote:
That is the rear pictured... . sans freewheel mounted.

Believe that TUNE BMX hub was NOS.. I replaced the axle with the best chro-moly quality one I could find with enough length. The flange holes being drilled somewhat deeper towards the center gave me the confidence to lace this radial. If I did same build today.. I'd lace what I term a '2 skip'.. with 1x. That being... four consecutive holes with the outer two spoked.. back across each other. Some reduction in flange strain I'd think.

4x laced as that effect is more near a 3x per spoke departure angle... given that hole count. My idea was the strength of a 48H wheel with that kind of even tension balance.. into that narrowly spaced rear. Weight in this case wasn't important... especially given the heavy Schwalbe tires. Yet has the weight advantage over the 48 with the lesser spoke count. A higher profile double wall rim certainly would be the way to go... this rim was the one available at the time of the build.

So.. I progressed on with lower spoke counts.. I ride a 24H triplet on my M700 26".. which is a decent wt set. This winter I assembled the 28H 700c... 18-10.. again more acceptable wt. I suspect a 24H triplet in 700 not enough for my weight.. but will assemble one for a trial.

Hi WinterRider, ahh sorry, it's an old 5/7spd, track, bmx fixed/freewheel hub :) unfortunately, these do not have the DS offset/Bracing Angle issue of the the current 10/11spd hubs ...

Yes, 26" rims allow for a better DS Bracing Angle :)

Re 28H 18:10 700c, what 36H hub did you use, did you use 3xDS, and are you using 9/10spd ...

Excellent, let us know how your 18:10 and 16:8 triplet compare (weight should be similar). One thing to consider with a 16:8 is that you should a proper 16:8 hub, which has better flange spacing (NDS offset) for radial lacing otherwise it won't really be a valid comparison :)


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:11 am 
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8 speed Shimano FH.. from memory around 55mm hub width on the 26".

Bracing angles aside... getting that kind of wheel tension side to side balance into 122 spacing was the key issue. Soft left side tension is an issue with the narrow spacings too. Works fine.

18-10 was mostly a matter of the components being on hand. Should be serviceable even if a spoke lets go. 24H triplets I read often aren't with a breakage.


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Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:11 am 


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:45 am 
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Hi WinterRider, ahh 122mm OLD ... yes, NDS spoke breakage (which is where it is likely to happen, because 0x is poor at handling torque effects) is the issue with the 16:8.

How much do you think the 18:10 strengthens the wheel?
... thanks, I will go back and have a look at your 18:10 picture on page 257 http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=74564&p=958089#p958089
... it looks like the DS is 2x, is that correct? :)
... you think 10 NDS spokes makes the wheel sufficiently serviceable, is that correct? :)
... 10 NDS spokes is sufficient for 1x (probably 9 spokes are also) :)


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