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 Post subject: Tip
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 10:07 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:55 pm
Posts: 1318
Location: UK
Here's another tip for you:

If you are lacing a hub with the common method of drive side trailing spoke ahead of valve hole first, then to get the graphics on the hub to fall perfectly in line with the valve hole........

Count the number of 'crosses' you intend to make, for example 3x.
Look for the first hole forward of the writing on the drive side, then start with the next hole forward, counting 1,2,3 away from you.
If you insert your first spoke in the 3rd hole, the writing on the hub will always be seen through the valve hole.
Works for all lacing patterns. 1x, 2x, 3x or 4x, simply put the 1st spoke into the corresponding hole - hole 1 for 1x, hole 2 for 2x etc.
Radial is easier obviously.

Nice little finishing touch.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:49 am 
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Posts: 118
Location: Shakopee, MN
So how much run out (vertical and horizontal) do you allow to keep yourself from going crazy? And what percentage variation on spoke tension? The first set I put together I ended up just under .005 mm and nearly went cross-eyed trying to get less. I've got tension in the 105-110 kgf range and they are still just as true after the first 100 miles. These are Ambrosio FCS28's with Record 32 hole hubs laced 2X front and 3X rear with DT Rev's. I'd also like to do another set of these and at 155 lbs on a fat day would I be stupid to try these with a 20/24 or 24/28 combo with different hubs of course?


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Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:49 am 


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 7:25 am 
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Location: Alto, NM
madcow wrote:
You have to remember, no wheel build, by anyone is ever going to be perfect. If it's perfectly round, spoke tension won't be perfectly even. If spoke tension is perfectly even, it won't be perfectly round. That's due to the fact that tolerances in rim manufacturing are not perfect. Some wheels are definitely going to be round or truer than others.


Well said. Even tension is the most important for wheel strength, and any deviations in this should be strictly to make the wheel acceptably true. Radially stiff rims that aren't round to start with need a lot of tension variation to make them perfectly round. I've settled on a variation of up to .015" with minimal tension variation (+-5kg or so) before I'll say the rim is no good. I think it could be higher than that before I would feel it though.

The best way to acheive both of these goals is to start with a true wheel with very light tension, and keep it as true as possible throughout the building process.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 8:07 am 
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Location: UK
rruff wrote:
The best way to acheive both of these goals is to start with a true wheel with very light tension, and keep it as true as possible throughout the building process.


Thats the way I was taught - and it still works today for all wheel styles.

As for roundness, if you are measuring this with a dial guage, the join in alloy rims will drive you mad - LOL! Best to try to get even tension, not letting the whole wheel hang on the spokes at the join and just live with a slight bump or flat at the join. I'm talking about <0.5mm here, not enough to see with the eye when the wheel is off the jig.

Tyres aren't perfect either so a tiny imperfection here definately won't be felt.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 8:09 am 
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Location: Belgium
When tensioning a centered rear wheel, you need to take into account the different angle of the NDS and DS spokes. The NDS spokes will pull the rim more to the side than the NDS spokes with the same amount of turn on a nipple. So if you tension all the spokes by 1 turn, the rim will be out of center towards the NDS.
In my experience, the ratio for keeping the rim centered is 1 NDS - 2 DS, so 1 NDS turn corresponds to 2 DS turns.

@ Legs11: I'm still curious about that finger vice. I haven't seen any before, or maybe it's just that I don't know the English term and so don't recognise what you mean.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 9:36 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:40 pm
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Location: Kent: UK
Just thought i'd add that to begin, you really don't need special wheel building jigs. I built mine out of an old pair of ITM aero carbon forks I snapped in a crash. Basically joined each fork leg together and epoxied it into a block of wood with the dropout facing upwards. Two zip ties act as roundness and trueness guage and I normally place a sheet of white A4 paper under the jig for some contrast. The wheel just fixes to the jig using an old campag skewer and I use a bit of cardboard cutout for dish.

The following jig has now helped me build 16 pairs of wheels over the seasons with no problems racing on them. 3 friends also race on wheels I have built for them on this jig. I have tried a few commerical jigs, but keep coming back to old faithful as it's so simple and flexible. Zip ties are just slid up and down or twisted to adjust to rim size accordingly.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 11:18 am 
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Location: down by the Jubilee River
mnslc wrote:
So how much run out (vertical and horizontal) do you allow to keep yourself from going crazy? And what percentage variation on spoke tension? The first set I put together I ended up just under .005 mm and nearly went cross-eyed trying to get less.


Either your units are wrong or you put the decimal point in the wrong place. .005mm is about 1/20th of a hair's breadth


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:17 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:38 pm
Posts: 120
Three questions:

1. What's the maximum tension for a Kinlin XR-300 rim? I'm using Aerolites and a Park tensiometer, so if anyone has a number specific to those spokes and that tensio, I'd be very grateful.

2. Can DT Pro Lock hex head nipples be reused? DT states that each nipple can be adjusted up to five times before the threadlock compound breaks down. I need to replace my rear rim, and don't know if I can reuse the nipples or if I should use brass with threadlock instead.

3. When using threadlock, how important is it to have the nipples and spoke threads perfectly clean? If it's important, how do you prep them?

Thanks guys. This is a really helpful thread.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:34 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:22 am
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Location: Leg hurty
Luc, this is what I mean by a finger vice.
Image
This one is at least 90 years old as it was made by my Great grandfather in his apprenticeship and used for the last 60 years by my Grandad before he died ! Now that's a quality tool. :lol:
I use it for holding DT revs and loosening corroded or rounded nipples.
Of course I use a modern Sapim tool for bladed spokes but this little thing is really an invaluable tool.
@keevhon, I only normally use a prolock or a liquid thread lock on the NDS rear and even then only in exceptional circumstances, you'd be better off using Linseed oil if you can as it lubes the thread nicely and also sets into a waxy thread lock.
Some rim/hub combinations can be problematic on the NDS rear if you build them for a very heavy rider, especially if you have a very light, flexy rim as the spokes can come loose, that's the only situation I'd use threadlock for.
You can re-use prolocks but they don't work as well second time, this can be a good thing though as sometimes prolocks can be very tight.
The tensions you want on that build will be dependant on your rider weight but they are pretty robust so I would have thought you can go pretty high if you need too.
I know bikemessenger builds the kinlin rims really high without problems.
130 ish kgf max on the DS rear I would think, I'd go with about 100-110 kgf DSR for me at 80kg.
Hope this helps, maybe Troy or one of the guys that uses the Kinlins more than me can clarify the max tension for you?
Cheers, Rob. :)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:42 pm 
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What is a recommended wheel jig? One that preferably is good value.

Wheel jig alone is meaningless without a dish tool.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:50 pm 
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Location: down by the Jubilee River
cryoplasm wrote:
What is a recommended wheel jig? One that preferably is good value.

Wheel jig alone is meaningless without a dish tool.


I use the same Minoura kit which Legs11 showed up thread, it's cheap and doesn't take up much room when you're not using it and I've built adequate wheels on it - i.e., they're round enough and stay that way.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:06 pm 
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Yep :) You can get it as a kit with everything you need for about £70 I seem to remember.
Found this, I know these guys are good.

http://www.merlincycles.co.uk/?fn=produ ... egoryId=15

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:08 pm 
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I sent you a PM, was interested in your used one.


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 Post subject: Threadlock alternative
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:05 pm 
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Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:32 pm
Posts: 132
Location: UK
I was given this tip by an experienced wheelbuilder at East Street Cycles in Farnham (UK). He recommended using linseed oil at threadlock.

I have been doing this on a number of wheel builds recently and it works really well. I dip the thread of the spoke in linseed oil bofore lacing, remove any excess by touching the thread to a bit of newspaper. The oil lubricates the nipple whilst you are building the wheel helping to reduce spoke wind up. Once the wheel has been left untouched for a couple of days the linseed oil has solidified and acts as a very mild threadlock. If you do adjust the wheel at a later date the linseed oil tends to crack and fall away from the nipple / thread. I have never had any problems with nipples seixing if I use this technique.

Not sure how compatible linseed oil is with carbon resins. So you might not want to use this method on internal nipples with carbon rims. Perhaps someone knows if linseed oil on carbon would be a problem.

Oh and don't leave rags soaked in linseed oil lying around, they can spontaniously combust under certain conditions.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 5:00 pm 
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Location: Alto, NM
keevohn wrote:
What's the maximum tension for a Kinlin XR-300 rim?


I've not heard of one cracking yet, so I don't know if the maximum has been determined. 120kg is a good value to use... but I doubt you will have any problems if you exceed that.


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Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 5:00 pm 


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