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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 3:13 pm 
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Location: San Francisco, CA
Kevin @ Bike Nüt likes glue, but until I see rolling resistance data comparable to the excellent results for Mastik, I'll stick with glue. And the best RR came from heavy gluing. So don't weenie on the glue: rolling resistance is ALWAYS more important than weight for typical tire + glue weights (unless you're simply trying to get the lightest possible bike, even if it's slower).

BTW, since I saw those data, my interest in cleaning rims declined. A bit extra glue won't hurt, and might help.

Anyway, another question: I punctured my Veloflex Record @ a hillclimb yesterday. Small hole but leaks quickly (~1 minute). What's the consensus?
  1. stitch and patch.... but it's unclear how to unsew these tires.
    Image
  2. Tufo liquid latex, conservatively applied with puncture down to economize on latex,
    Image
  3. Stan's conservatively applied with puncture down to economize on latex,
    Image
  4. Vittoria Pit Stop, which can't be conservatively applied, but rather blasts an obscene mass of latex into the tire,
    Image
  5. New tire: You buy $2k wheels with $100 tires and throw away performance with goo in the tube? Don't be dumb.
    Image

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 3:38 pm 
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djconnel wrote:
  1. stitch and patch.... but it's unclear how to unsew these tires.


I believe it's patch and stitch. What's unclear about unsewing? If it's done by machine, cut the casing then stitch it at the end.


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Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 3:38 pm 


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 3:57 pm 
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Location: Drenthe, Holland
DJ,

For mtb tire application I always used Stans + two big drops of Slime.
The slime mixed very well with the Stans fluid and the larger fibres in the Slime plug holes better then Stans cristals IMHO. this way you get best of both worlds. The Slime fibres create a netting where the Stans cristals end up in and thus plug the hole very well!

So, My vote is Stans + slime. Use a little bit of it (20 ml) make shure it makes its way to the hole and pump the tire up ever so slightly so it can plug the hole. after having it sit like that for a few mins. pump the tire up some more and let it sit for a few mins. and so on and so on...

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 8:57 pm 
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Hi,

@DJ:

I used to stitch Records and Servizio Corse because they're so easy to stitch thanks to the supple casing.
I could explain how to go about it but you'll also need some Barge cement or similar (I used to use Jevelot Tirelife) to put the bias tape back into place.
All in all a very time consuming business and bad stitching (unevenly tensioned thread for instance) may well mean you'll either have to redo the job or junk the tyre.

Nowadays I use small amounts (10 to 15cc sometimes even less) of the old version of Tufo sealant with which I'm very successful unless the cut is too big for the liquid to handle.
It's fast, doesn't require stitching, doesn't weigh more than a latex patch, doesn't upset the structure of the tubular and it can be done in 15''.
I've succesfully repaired a dozen tubulars with 70ml of sealant and the tubulars still look like normal tubs unlike some of my less successful repair jobs using the "classic" method. :oops:

Ciao, ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:33 pm 
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Location: Kent: UK
One warning with latex-based sealants and tubulars with delicate latex inner tubes is the sealant can stick the innertube together causing it to rip a hole in itself when you come to re-inflate.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:51 pm 
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Good tip.... sounds like I need to make sure it stays inflated during the "curing" process. Inject, replace the core, inflate, then slosh back and forth.

Hopefully I can get the "core" out... it's a Vittoria valve extender and since I suspect the valve stem was the issue, and I didn't have any teflon tape, I borrowed a bit of a guy's Tufo latex and "glued" it on.... If I rip the tube removing this my decision is made for me :).

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:32 pm 
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Location: NZ
fdegrove, do you use the sealant as DJ describes? Keen to learn your method since it sounds like you've had success and I have a 3km old tubular with a puncture....

Thanks!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:43 am 
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Just to add...


NEVER USE TUBASTI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I needed to glue some tubes in a pinch(friday morning before I left for a race weekend) and that's all the shop had so I bought some. After 24 hours(saturday morning) the glue was still not dry and I couldn't figure out why. I rode the front wheel since my TT was an out and back but did not feel confident crit'ing them or road racing them.

I picked them up today(monday) and glue was still not dry. wtf? I was able to easily rip the front tire off, the back one came off pretty easy as well. Turns out the glue didn't even stick to the base tape (Vittoria corsa cx) and was just oozing out. Ordered a can of mastik one which should be here before this weekend(hopefully) so I can race.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:44 am 
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Hi,

Here's is how I go about it.
Having a tube of the old Tufo sealant or new formula for repair, a needle nose plier or that plastic key to remove valve cores that come with some Tufo extenders handy:

- If on a low profile rim or using an extender that has the core moved to its top, no need to remove the tubular.

- Remove the core with a dedicated tool or a small needle nose plier.

- Turn the wheel so the stem is at about five o'clock. Point being that if at six o'clock the stem will squash the inner tube so no liquid can enter it.

- Next I use the plastic spout top of a Vittoria Pittstop as a means to hold some of the liquid latex whilst it enters the inner tube. You don't really need it but it makes it easier to fill the inner tube.

- Now follow some tricky parts: you'd want to get some liquid into that inner tube so you slowly fill the valve stem with liquid latex.
Once you notice the valve stem is empty, you once again carefully pour in some more. Repeat untill you have about 10ml in the tube, 1/7th of the tube's content.
We're talking small quantities here.

- Now whipe the valve stem clean and quickly mount the core and tighten it.

- Inflate to about 1/2 bar, just enough to make the tubular look roundish again and spin the wheel around to let the liquid disperse inside the inner tube.

- Reinflate the tubular slowly to about 6 bar and spin the wheel around again. if you can hear air escaping try to locate the leak and put a finger on it. This will give the liquid sufficient time to set and block the hole.

- Assuming no more air is leaking reinflate again to normal operating pressure (say about 100 psi) and leave it like that for an hour or so.

- Check if the leak was successfully stopped and again inflate to about half a bar over beyond normal inflation to simulate normal road conditions as seen by the tubular.

- Recheck the next day. If the tyre has retained normal pressure (i.e. no abnormal loss of air), you're good to go. If not you'll need to repeat the process. (Rare IME)

-Now you'd ideally want to keep this tyre inflated and in use for the next couple of days at least to leave enough time for all the fluid you poured in to solidify.

Accidentally deflating it may well cog up the core with liquid latex which can be washed out with White Spirit.

Needless to say, a worn tube is just that. You may well pull some extra miles out of but why bother?
Too big a hole is too big a hole. No miracle cures for those.

Ciao, ;)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:54 am 
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2002SaecoReplica wrote:
Just to add...


NEVER USE TUBASTI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I needed to glue some tubes in a pinch(friday morning before I left for a race weekend) and that's all the shop had so I bought some. After 24 hours(saturday morning) the glue was still not dry and I couldn't figure out why. I rode the front wheel since my TT was an out and back but did not feel confident crit'ing them or road racing them.

I picked them up today(monday) and glue was still not dry. wtf? I was able to easily rip the front tire off, the back one came off pretty easy as well. Turns out the glue didn't even stick to the base tape (Vittoria corsa cx) and was just oozing out. Ordered a can of mastik one which should be here before this weekend(hopefully) so I can race.


Hi,

I guess the shop poured half a gallon of White Spirit into that can of rim cement to make it runny again?....

Tubasti may not be the best out there but it works fine for aluminium rims.
Carbon rims are a different kettle of fish, they'll need to be squeeky clean or it just won't stick.
Same goes for Jantex tape BTW which is no other than a strip of cloth covered in Tubasti cement.............

Ciao, ;)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 2:02 am 
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fdegrove wrote:
Hi,

Here's is how I go about it.


Awesome! 10g. That's the sort of solution I like to see.

Dan

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:17 pm 
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It read smoother than it was actually executed....

I pulled the valve core, injected the Tufo liquid from the plastic bottle (after clearing out a large plug of congealed latex), then removed the bottle (latex gushed out and made a mess). Okay, clean-up, then rotate the stem downward, inject more liquid latex, insert the valve core, rotate so the flat was pointing down, and inflate.

I picked it up to listen for escaping air and liquid latex escaping from the puncture sprayed all over my face. Okay, at least it was getting where it needed to be.

More air and it stopped leaking. It seems to be holding air.

I wish I could tell you to the nearest 0.1 grams how much I injected. Much of what was injected ended up on the floor (or my face :)). But it seemed to work nicely. I'd estimate no more than 10 grams of what I injected is still in there. I injected only around 17 total, so it's not more than that, and spilled quite a lot of that.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:18 pm 
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Location: Getting dropped
Okay, someone help me.

So I am hoping I've not ruined brand new vittoria's with this tubasti mess. Is there a way to get the tubasti off the tubular so that I can reglue it with mastik one? I've tried sand paper and a table knife but it's not really coming off...the glue still isn't dry, it's like still sort of gooie.

I used goo gone on the wheels and it takes the old glue off, with some elbow grease, but I'm hesitant to use it on the tires because it might seep into the base tape and screw with the new glue I put on.

help...

_________________
- Zipp rims will break if you look at them too hard
- R-Sys wheels will spontaneously explode
- The ZG crankset will never, ever exist
- Everyone needs Lightweights, even if they're fat and old
- Parts actually made of metal are SO 10 years ago


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:46 pm 
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Location: Belgium
Hi,

What do you feel is so wrong with Tubasti rim cement in the first place?

Ciao, :wink:

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Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:46 pm 


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:59 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 10:02 pm
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Location: Getting dropped
fdegrove wrote:
Hi,

What do you feel is so wrong with Tubasti rim cement in the first place?

Ciao, :wink:


It sucks.

_________________
- Zipp rims will break if you look at them too hard
- R-Sys wheels will spontaneously explode
- The ZG crankset will never, ever exist
- Everyone needs Lightweights, even if they're fat and old
- Parts actually made of metal are SO 10 years ago


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