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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 7:33 am 
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I would advise you learn to separate a small section of basetape from the rim with your fingers just enough to get a screwdriver under it, then you can wiggle the screwdriver all around the rim to remove tubular without damage to it or the rim. With carbon rims, use the same technique, but use a wodden spoon handle or even the plastic nylon tyre levers work well I find.

There's a good video of Barloworld's mechanic demonstrating this time-honoured failsafe technique on
vittoria.com. I can honestly say you will never risk separating a basetape removing tubulars using this method. The hard part is just getting the first inch separated, but look at the video for an easy method.

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Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 7:33 am 


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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 6:46 pm 
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hockinsk wrote:
I would advise you learn to separate a small section of basetape from the rim with your fingers just enough to get a screwdriver under it, then you can wiggle the screwdriver all around the rim to remove tubular without damage to it or the rim. With carbon rims, use the same technique, but use a wodden spoon handle or even the plastic nylon tyre levers work well I find.

There's a good video of Barloworld's mechanic demonstrating this time-honoured failsafe technique on
vittoria.com. I can honestly say you will never risk separating a basetape removing tubulars using this method. The hard part is just getting the first inch separated, but look at the video for an easy method.


Thanks but you are misreading my issue here.

I can get the tub off but what comes off is in my view unsightly, both metaphorically and visually. I am looking for a base tape substitute which can be applied once a tub is removed for the first time.

Surely people have come across this problem before :?: :!:


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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 7:02 pm 
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Why remove/replace the basetape when it is simply glued back onto the rim where it can't be seen anyway?

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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 7:08 pm 
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Contaminated base tape has chunks of dried up cement which affects the harmony of the entire tyre. The base tape is no longer supple. The tyre then does not seat well on the rim. Eventually this results in hopping and bumping of the tyre as it rolls around. I have then found there is considerable wear on the base of the tub and this has already caused me a fair amount of grief repairing.


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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 7:44 pm 
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Never experienced any of your symptoms i'm afraid. What glue do you use?

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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 7:50 pm 
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The popular C and V. Though it is not the cement which is the issue. I am after a solution for the base tape.


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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 8:06 pm 
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I'm not sure what 'advantage' you are trying achieve wanting to use a fresh basetape after every repair, but the basetape doesn't need to be supple? In fact once the glue dries, it is hard anyway which is what you want. You don't want the basetape to 'squirm' around on the rim, you want a superglue type bond really? When people talk about supple tubulars they mean in the sidewalls & tread/carcass really.

As for contamination in the basetape, I don't know what might be causing this. As far as i'm concerened, you just wipe it with a some solvent to remove any surface grease, apply a layer of glue and fit it back on the rim. The next time you remove the tubular, you repair it, coat it with a fresh layer of glue which dissolves the old dried layer, flattening any lumps and you then, fit the tubular and job done. Inflating to max PSI squeezes the glue level again anyway.

After 2 or 3 repairs, most of my tubulars have worn the tread out anyway, so it goes in the bin or used as a spare.

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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 9:31 pm 
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hockinsk wrote:
I'm not sure what 'advantage' you are trying achieve wanting to use a fresh basetape after every repair, but the basetape doesn't need to be supple? In fact once the glue dries, it is hard anyway which is what you want. You don't want the basetape to 'squirm' around on the rim, you want a superglue type bond really? When people talk about supple tubulars they mean in the sidewalls & tread/carcass really.


Indeed but the base tape needs to be supple and flexible to get the fit and seating correct from the outset.


hockinsk wrote:
As for contamination in the basetape, I don't know what might be causing this. As far as i'm concerened, you just wipe it with a some solvent to remove any surface grease, apply a layer of glue and fit it back on the rim. The next time you remove the tubular, you repair it, coat it with a fresh layer of glue which dissolves the old dried layer, flattening any lumps and you then, fit the tubular and job done. Inflating to max PSI squeezes the glue level again anyway.


There is also the other concern which I have hinted to. I bet you once a tub has been removed more than two times it has some or the other form of permanent contamination in the base tape. That is a reliability issue which can be avoided by a complete overhaul/replacement of the base tape as should be done.

In addition, if the base tape is not fit for purpose gaps in the contact between the tub and rim start appearing. This further induces contamination of the base tape.


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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 10:24 pm 
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Good luck in your quest. It's great that you want that perfect 'virgin' bond a clean rim, new basetape and new glue provides, but I feel it is a problem most do not feel is worthwhile chasing or offers a significantly better bond with the rim and basetape? At the end of the day, you just need the tubular to be reasonably round and stick to the rim. The method I describe works and has done for most rider for over 100 years.

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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 11:15 pm 
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cryoplasm wrote:
hockinsk wrote:
I'm not sure what 'advantage' you are trying achieve wanting to use a fresh basetape after every repair, but the basetape doesn't need to be supple? In fact once the glue dries, it is hard anyway which is what you want. You don't want the basetape to 'squirm' around on the rim, you want a superglue type bond really? When people talk about supple tubulars they mean in the sidewalls & tread/carcass really.


Indeed but the base tape needs to be supple and flexible to get the fit and seating correct from the outset.


hockinsk wrote:
As for contamination in the basetape, I don't know what might be causing this. As far as i'm concerened, you just wipe it with a some solvent to remove any surface grease, apply a layer of glue and fit it back on the rim. The next time you remove the tubular, you repair it, coat it with a fresh layer of glue which dissolves the old dried layer, flattening any lumps and you then, fit the tubular and job done. Inflating to max PSI squeezes the glue level again anyway.


There is also the other concern which I have hinted to. I bet you once a tub has been removed more than two times it has some or the other form of permanent contamination in the base tape. That is a reliability issue which can be avoided by a complete overhaul/replacement of the base tape as should be done.

In addition, if the base tape is not fit for purpose gaps in the contact between the tub and rim start appearing. This further induces contamination of the base tape.


Hi,

I read you.
I'm kind of a mister perfect myself but there's a fine line between perfection and mere paranoia.

You notice a hop in that tubular and you know it's caused by too much of that old rim cement?
Give that basetape a good scrub with a brush dipped in White Spirit so that hardened glue weakens and conforms with the rest of that rim again.
I'd only recommend this as a last resort measure for an already desperate case.
These chemicals may well do more damage elsewhere than you'd wish for...

The problem you're experiencing is likely caused by using rim cement that's on the brink of chemical stability.
This creates random spots of very firm adhesion with weak spots inbetween.

Stir the rim cement well before applying it and you may well be out of the woods..

Other causes are to be found on the other end of the stick. Contaminated basetape or a not so clean rim for instance.

Cheers, :wink:

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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 10:28 am 
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Not really a reply to the subject, but is this a pointless excercise??

Spent 2.5hrs last night cleaning a rim for a mate after some tw@t (local pro) had glued and taped his tub on. Bits of base tape got left on the rim.

I've used glue and i've used tape, but what is the benefit if any of both??

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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 9:05 pm 
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Hi,

This was a carbon rim?

Ciao, :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 10:31 am 
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Yes- a Gigantex.

Surely its a case of "if you don't trust tape; then glue".

If glueing because you don't trust tape, then the tape must have some detriment on the glues performance.

and if you don't trust your own glueing, should you be doing anyone elses wheels??

Disregarding all hystersis arguements etc, it seems a bloody strange/ misinformed way of doing things.
I could be wrong though...

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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 10:56 pm 
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Hi,

It may well be a case of I don't trust these rims with tape so I'll put a layer of glue on first so I reduce the risk of ripping off chunks of carbon whenever I decide to remove that tubular and still maintain the benefit of the tape, i.e. easy allignement....

Either that or the guy was just to lazy to remove the glue prior to putting on the tape?

If he used Jantex I can understand the policy in that Jantex tape doesn't stick too well on a carbon rim.
A layer of glue on the rim makes for a world of difference.

Either way, it does seem a bit silly all things considered.

Ciao, :wink:

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Last edited by fdegrove on Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:11 pm 
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Interesting comments on tubular tire gluing from Ben Oliver (excerpts only provided):

"...Tufo tape has three things going for it. It is very fast, very easy, and a very sub-standard way to glue up your tires. I want to say that if you are using training tires as tubulars, go ahead and glue them with Vitoria Mastik One glue. It's the best ever, and you won't regret it...There are a lot of mechanics out there that are vastly more experienced and intelligent than I am, and none of them think Tufo tape is worth more than a rider's skin. I remember reading somewhere that Tufo only recommends using their tape with their tires as well, so I've always stayed away from it. I've mentioned an article written by Chip Howat called “Tubular Tires: Adhesives and Practice” on this blog before and it is the definitive study on tubular glue and tire mounting process. I've been glueing tubulars this way for years and I've never had a single athlete complain about their tires and I've never had a tire roll off a rim. There is also a really great, shorter, less scientific article on the Park Tool website as well that was written by Calvin Jones, the co-author of the aforementioned article. I know this is a pretty general answer, but some other tips would be to make sure you get a consistent coverage of glue over the entire rim, seat the tire properly after you've mounted it, don't let the glue get excessively dry (is should just be tacky when you mount the tire), and for the love of God, stop using Tufo tape. Hope that helps."


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