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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 3:05 pm 
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Valy wrote:
Sorry for the resurrection but what about the shift lever travel? Do red and Force have the same travel?

I tried it in a shop briefly - Red 2013 and old Red seem to have the same travel, but it seemed that another shifter I tried had more travel before the shift? I think it was Rival but not sure.


Red Black and Force are now nearly identical--the hay the same lever travel, same chainrings, same derailleur jockeys. The only real differences are a few grams of weight and different cassette/chain.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:15 pm 
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Nice, thanks for replies!

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Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:15 pm 


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:07 am 
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sigismond0 wrote:
Valy wrote:

Red Black and Force are now nearly identical--the hay the same lever travel, same chainrings, same derailleur jockeys. The only real differences are a few grams of weight and different cassette/chain.


Really? That would be a nice addition if thats true.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:14 pm 
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http://www.sram.com/news/sram-force-sti ... ter-better" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There's the deets on current Force.

(I know so much about Force because I got 2012 Force late in the season and then got sad a lot and had to replace the shifter, ring, and jockeys.)


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:04 pm 
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Interesting that this thread got bumped back up:
After I first posted in 2009, and bought the 2010 Force group, I used it and was happy for 2 years. Last summer the right shift paddle broke off in my hand during a ride, so I had to "hobble" back home in my smallest cog. I had been in a couple crashes over the two years, so I can't lay blame on the lever, but it was still a disappointment.

So I decided to replace the levers with the 2013 RED levers and also replaced the front derailleur so I could get the "Yaw" action feature. It all works fine, and maybe the RED levers are a bit smoother, but it is not very noticeable. Of course I don't have them side-by-side for comparison, but I hardly noticed any difference in travel, effort, smoothness, clicks, etc.

Now I see that the 2013 FORCE shifters have been upgraded to near the RED, so they are probably really about equal. I can't really be sure if RED will last longer than my original FORCE levers. Too many variables.
I am still using 2010 FORCE cranks with the 2013 RED Yaw front derailleur, and that works perfectly fine.

For information: After I got the 2013 RED shifters, I was using them with the 2010 FORCE front derailleur for a while before I got the YAW derailleur, and that also worked just fine. They all seem completely cross-compatible. And I like to cross-chain mercilessly, both big-small and small-big, so if there were any problems I am pretty confident I would have found them.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:10 pm 
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FWIW, the difference between Rival and Force derailleurs is negligible, and very high $/gram for the difference. You can build a pretty nice system on the cheap with Rival derailleurs, Red shifters, and planet-x brakes, and toss in your crank of choice as budget allows.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:14 pm 
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Buy why use Red shifters when Force does everything they do at a significant discount? You'll save a whole lot more money there than you will by getting Rival derailleurs.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:29 pm 
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Thanks for the feedback Rick!

sigismond0 wrote:
Buy why use Red shifters when Force does everything they do at a significant discount? You'll save a whole lot more money there than you will by getting Rival derailleurs.


As for using red levers maybe due to the new shape and there is the bling factor! :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:45 pm 
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Well if you're getting (new) Red levers, then you have to get the yaw FD as well. I meant Red Black vs Force. (Seriously Sram, you make groupset discussion ever so slightly more difficult than it used to be.)

I did the maths a while back and there's something like a 180g difference between current Force and Red Black. The two sets are funtionally identical, just different styling and materials. Most of the weight savings is in the cassette (50-60g), with no more than 20ish grams difference on the other parts. Not to mention that Black's FD is absolutely terrible. Basically, Black either needs a complete redesign (wait they just did that...) or is likely going to get killed off.

If you're trying to decide between the two, I strongly recommend going Force, maybe an upgrade to the Red cassette. Use all the money you saved to trim weight somewhere important like wheels.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:31 pm 
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Sigismondo0 - I see a very small difference in price between old red and force shifters, which is why I said red. There seems to be a lot of older red shifters hitting the market: I assume people are updating to the new red, or shimano 9000.

As for cassette - you are probably best off getting a 105 or ultegra cassette for a budget build. The extra $200 in cost to save 50-60g in the cassette is probably not worth it, and the shimano cassettes shift much smoother in my experience


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:43 pm 
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Oh yeah, if you're getting your levers used then definitely go for Black. You'll save a pretty penny over getting brand new Force stuff. If your buying new, however, go for Force. Either way, make sure to avoid the titanium Black FD--either buy the Force FD or the Red Yaw FD, which works nicely on old levers.

I also agree on the cassette for the most part, but the Black cassette does have the whole "more durable than Wolverine" thing going for it.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:26 pm 
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Location: Dallas, TX
I've been able to piece together a Frankenstein Shramano Gruppo for a pretty decent price for my upcoming bike. All, but the RD have been or will be purchased new on the web (from companies not classified ads). I got a lightly used Rival RD via Craigslist.

SRAM Red Black Shifters
SRAM Red Black Crankset
SRAM Team GXP BB
SRAM Force Brakes
Shimano Dura Ace 7800 FD 28.6 Clamp On
SRAM Rival RD
Shimano Ultergra Cassette / SRAM 1070 Cassette (undecided..$ <10 difference)
KMC X10SL Chain

Based on my spreadsheet of claimed and confirmed weights I am looking at a weight of 2061g and an outlay of $901. Had I bought this all at once, Force probably would have been my preferred route for about the same weight/cost, but I have pieced this together over the past 12 months.

The main benefit with putting extra money into the Red shifters and saving money by going to Rival FD and RD is that until the 2012 Force Group came out, Red was the only group to have zero loss on both front and rear shifting. Also there is the $$bling$$ factor.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:49 pm 
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Agreed that the red titanium derailleur is crap. The cassette may be more durable than a wolverine, but I can have 3-4 ultegra or 105 cassettes for the price of the single 1090 ;) (supposedly the 105 and ultegra cassettes only differ in the lockring too)

I might skip an old red crank, unless you get it really cheap - the exograms seem to be able to be had for 360ish, and are an increase in stiffness and decrease in weight...or the specialized bb30s for sub 300 for a 550gram crank.

As for the yaw vs force/rival front derailleur - I'd stick a rival on it, and if it shifts fine, move on. If not, resell the rival, lose $5-10, and buy the yaw.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:11 pm 
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I have both groups.

rear shifting is significantly better on the Red group - much shorter throws and less play.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:01 pm 
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inertianinja wrote:
I have both groups.

rear shifting is significantly better on the Red group - much shorter throws and less play.


Have you used 2013 Force? You'll want to read back a few posts in the thread where that was discussed. Force now has the exact same ZeroLoss rear shifting as Red.


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Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:01 pm 


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